SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio


f1jek
 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


f1jek
 

Oups, the accentuated "é" in the image filename seems to be a problem.

Attached again with another one.


jdow
 

Try 2.4 Msps. Or something like 2.0 Msps. The dongle might be problematic up around the top sample rate they can deliver withuot dropped packets, 2.4 Msps. I've not seen a dongle yet fail at 2.4 Msps. I've seen it drop packets at even 2.5 Msps. 2.25 Msps may drop into a sample rate hole that causes frequent dropouts.

What are you doing when you think  you are reducing the dongle's bandwidth. I suspect you are confusing yourself about what you are doing.

(Listens to audio) Yes, you are using a sample rate your dongle cannot deliver through your USB connections. It may be other loads on the USB bus. It may be a sample rate that the dongle cannot properly process. It "should" handle 2.4 Msps. I've not seen 2.048 Msps fail. Use the highest rate that works for you.

{^_^}

On 20210607 06:56:35, f1jek wrote:
Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK
_


milairuk
 

I too have this exact problem, however I am running a SDR Play RSPdx. Mine is much worse when using cw with a 150/250Hz BW. I have tried all the suggested audio settings on Simon's help section but to no avail. If I use SDRUno I have no problems, but so much prefer SDRC. Like you it never seemed to be a problem with 3.0.24, but I don't want to revert. If anyone does have an answer this would be great,
Best regards
John G3VUO


Simon Brown
 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Simon Brown
 

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


milairuk
 

Everything crossed Simon, a fix would be really great for my NDB Dxing forays.

Appreciate your efforts.

John G3VUO


Siegfried Jackstien
 

may he just have wideband noiseblanker switched on?!? (just thinking)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 09.06.2021 um 08:00 schrieb Simon Brown:

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Simon Brown
 

No.

 

Stupid programmer errors…

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien
Sent: 09 June 2021 07:29
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

may he just have wideband noiseblanker switched on?!? (just thinking)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 09.06.2021 um 08:00 schrieb Simon Brown:

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


jdow
 

I would not be surprised if it was a bit of both. Sigi does have a point there.

{o.o}

On 20210608 23:34:23, Simon Brown wrote:

No.

 

Stupid programmer errors…

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien
Sent: 09 June 2021 07:29
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

may he just have wideband noiseblanker switched on?!? (just thinking)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 09.06.2021 um 08:00 schrieb Simon Brown:

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Simon Brown
 

No,

 

It’s WASAPI engine, my bugs and own flow control. I tried to be unnecessarily clever, problem is undoing this ‘cleverness’ .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow
Sent: 09 June 2021 09:38
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I would not be surprised if it was a bit of both. Sigi does have a point there.

{o.o}

On 20210608 23:34:23, Simon Brown wrote:

No.

 

Stupid programmer errors…

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien
Sent: 09 June 2021 07:29
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

may he just have wideband noiseblanker switched on?!? (just thinking)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 09.06.2021 um 08:00 schrieb Simon Brown:

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.

 


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Simon Brown
 

And,

 

Some multi-threading stuff.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 09 June 2021 09:43
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

No,

 

It’s WASAPI engine, my bugs and own flow control. I tried to be unnecessarily clever, problem is undoing this ‘cleverness’ .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow
Sent: 09 June 2021 09:38
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I would not be surprised if it was a bit of both. Sigi does have a point there.

{o.o}

On 20210608 23:34:23, Simon Brown wrote:

No.

 

Stupid programmer errors…

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien
Sent: 09 June 2021 07:29
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

may he just have wideband noiseblanker switched on?!? (just thinking)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 09.06.2021 um 08:00 schrieb Simon Brown:

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.

 


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Simon Brown
 

And,

 

Despite a sore foot, light rain and a grumpy dog I’m making progress 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 09 June 2021 10:03
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

And,

 

Some multi-threading stuff.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 09 June 2021 09:43
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

No,

 

It’s WASAPI engine, my bugs and own flow control. I tried to be unnecessarily clever, problem is undoing this ‘cleverness’ .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow
Sent: 09 June 2021 09:38
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I would not be surprised if it was a bit of both. Sigi does have a point there.

{o.o}

On 20210608 23:34:23, Simon Brown wrote:

No.

 

Stupid programmer errors…

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien
Sent: 09 June 2021 07:29
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

may he just have wideband noiseblanker switched on?!? (just thinking)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 09.06.2021 um 08:00 schrieb Simon Brown:

And,

 

I may have found it. It’s possibly due to an odd combination of coding inaccuracies. When it starts ‘cracking’ it doesn’t recover – or at least that’s what was happening 😊 .

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 08 June 2021 09:36
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

I’m working on this now, it’s difficult to find!

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 07 June 2021 14:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

Hi,

Excuse me if this topic has already been covered.

I have an issue on 2 different W10 computers :
- SDRC 3.0.27 with RTL dongle around 100MHz WFM, any bandwith
- SDRC 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 with FCD pro dongle, 143MHz, USB, 192kHz bandwith :

I have cracks in the audio, see attached. Note that on the FCD, reducing the sampling to the minimum solves the problem, doing a bandwith reduction on the RTL dongle did not change anything.

- Regression to 3.0.24 solved the issue.

Best regards; 73's de J-Luc F1JEK


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.

 


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


f1jek
 

As a (industrial control) developer myself, I can only answer you :

- I understand but all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway
- Good luck
- it's not your fault, it's the bytes that sometimes do weird things without our knowing it.

73's de F1JEK


Simon Brown
 

😊

 

This is some code which is 5 years old – now I have time to look at some of the annoying parts of the original design.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of f1jek
Sent: 09 June 2021 11:56
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

 

As a (industrial control) developer myself, I can only answer you :

- I understand but all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway
- Good luck
- it's not your fault, it's the bytes that sometimes do weird things without our knowing it.

73's de F1JEK


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Brian Morrison
 

On Wed, 2021-06-09 at 03:55 -0700, f1jek wrote:
- I understand but all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway 

No, they are all caused by inadequate documentation. Someone else's documentation.

- Good luck
- it's not your fault, it's the bytes that sometimes do weird things without our knowing it.

Too many cosmic rays about near solar minimum.

-- 

Brian  G8SEZ



jdow
 

It's called "Innate Perversity of Inanimate Objects", IPIO
Add humans and you get "Innate Perversity of Animate Homo Sapiens", IPAHS

{^_-}

On 20210609 03:55:48, f1jek wrote:

As a (industrial control) developer myself, I can only answer you :

- I understand but all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway
- Good luck
- it's not your fault, it's the bytes that sometimes do weird things without our knowing it.

73's de F1JEK



Rich NE1EE
 

On 2021-06-09 18:57:+0100, you wrote:
On Wed, 2021-06-09 at 03:55 -0700, f1jek wrote:
- I understand but all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway
No, they are all caused by inadequate documentation. Someone else's documentation.
For 25 years I ran my own engineering company, and much of what we did was embedded software engineering. We followed IEEE standards for software development.

One day we were hired to do a small project as a sort of test. The client liked the way we presented, and said that they were hiring us because they suspected that they didn't do very well in the area of software /engineering/. They are a large developer of industrial systems.

So one of our engineers dropped by and started the process by interviewing their engineers and developing requirement specs for the 3 small projects. This consisted of cycles of interviews>write spec>review spec w client>clarify spec> etc, until we were satisfied that the spec was accurate and complete. This didn't involve as many person-hours as it sounds like, but was spread out over a week or three. Then, using the Requirements as a springboard, the engineer did the same for the Design Spec. It needed some effort to keep on track, because the client constantly made the same mistake that many do...they were confusing requirements with design with construction.

When the design was finished, the engineer asked for all the applicable hardware docs that they had, and left with them, asking if it were OK to call for clarification (yes) and saying that he'd be back with the results.

Later...the engineer returned with 3 software products. Two were flawless; 1 had a small error. The client was stunned. I learned later from them that one of their engineers had commented to another as our engineer left to complete the project "there goes either the smartest person I have met or the stupidest. I don't understand what we just did. He didn't ask any of the questions I would have asked." They were so pleased with the work that they hired us for several large projects.

I recently posted an engineering comment on a ham-related list about some hardware and software mods for a project underdevelopment, complete with schematics and simulation results. The response from a developer was to the effect that I "must be wrong", though he had not bothered to read the 1000+ pages of hardware docs available from manufacturers. ((I had read the applicable parts.) He wrote, incorrectly, that the circuit is "probably" not what I described! His comment was up voted. ...I was not wrong; I had a working prototype. But I got the message, and stopped contributing.

"Programming" is one thing; "software engineering", another. "all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway"? We all make mistakes. That is why in my company everyone was expected to get his work reviewed in detail by another...to catch those mistakes. The reviewer was expected to ask probing, sometimes embarrassing, questions. Of course, the whole point was to discover flaws before the client did, so no question was really embarrassing, even if the author had to say "Gee, I had not thought of that." The idea was to critique the work, not the person.

I agree with (the way I interpret) "caused by inadequate documentation." I think that most ham projects are characterized by brilliant work, compromised by inadequate attention to requirements, design, and docs. As painful as it is, and I know from decades of experience, developers need to pay more attention to those items, and slow mad rush to release. At my company, we found that we always came in ahead of schedule and budget, with superlative products, because we spent the time to do software engineering correctly. Would you have a house built by having a load of pipes, lumber and so on dumped in your yard, and telling some contractor to "just build it"? This is not limited to hams...I recently spent time with some scientists who were doing brilliant work, and they paid the price for the same lack of rigor. In several cases, they had to hire other PhDs to reverse-engineer what they had done, and document it. Imagine the cost of hiring a few PhDs for a year just to "discover" what had already been discovered!




--
72/73 de Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua


Allan Isaacs
 

Way back around 1971 I was part of the 3 month study team for specifying and costing the Ptarmigan System.
That was for British Army comms and was based on a brand new Plessey computer developed in-house. I asked our subcontractor how long they would take to write a compiler and their expert systems guy was wheeled in. How long? I should say 3 moths he responded... how many people? Oh.. just me he said.
The compiler was eventually written but I understand it was still being worked on after some 30 man years of effort. I didn't notice if the expert was wearing rose tinted spectacles...
Allan G3PIY

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io [mailto:main@SDR-Radio.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rich NE1EE
Sent: 10 June 2021 11:57
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] SDR-console 3.0.26 & 3.0.27 : cracks in audio

On 2021-06-09 18:57:+0100, you wrote:
On Wed, 2021-06-09 at 03:55 -0700, f1jek wrote:
- I understand but all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway�
No, they are all caused by inadequate documentation. Someone else's documentation.
For 25 years I ran my own engineering company, and much of what we did was embedded software engineering. We followed IEEE standards for software development.

One day we were hired to do a small project as a sort of test. The client liked the way we presented, and said that they were hiring us because they suspected that they didn't do very well in the area of software /engineering/. They are a large developer of industrial systems.

So one of our engineers dropped by and started the process by interviewing their engineers and developing requirement specs for the 3 small projects. This consisted of cycles of interviews>write spec>review spec w client>clarify spec> etc, until we were satisfied that the spec was accurate and complete. This didn't involve as many person-hours as it sounds like, but was spread out over a week or three. Then, using the Requirements as a springboard, the engineer did the same for the Design Spec. It needed some effort to keep on track, because the client constantly made the same mistake that many do...they were confusing requirements with design with construction.

When the design was finished, the engineer asked for all the applicable hardware docs that they had, and left with them, asking if it were OK to call for clarification (yes) and saying that he'd be back with the results.

Later...the engineer returned with 3 software products. Two were flawless; 1 had a small error. The client was stunned. I learned later from them that one of their engineers had commented to another as our engineer left to complete the project "there goes either the smartest person I have met or the stupidest. I don't understand what we just did. He didn't ask any of the questions I would have asked." They were so pleased with the work that they hired us for several large projects.

I recently posted an engineering comment on a ham-related list about some hardware and software mods for a project underdevelopment, complete with schematics and simulation results. The response from a developer was to the effect that I "must be wrong", though he had not bothered to read the 1000+ pages of hardware docs available from manufacturers. ((I had read the applicable parts.) He wrote, incorrectly, that the circuit is "probably" not what I described! His comment was up voted. ...I was not wrong; I had a working prototype. But I got the message, and stopped contributing.

"Programming" is one thing; "software engineering", another. "all programmer mistakes are stupid anyway"? We all make mistakes. That is why in my company everyone was expected to get his work reviewed in detail by another...to catch those mistakes. The reviewer was expected to ask probing, sometimes embarrassing, questions. Of course, the whole point was to discover flaws before the client did, so no question was really embarrassing, even if the author had to say "Gee, I had not thought of that." The idea was to critique the work, not the person.

I agree with (the way I interpret) "caused by inadequate documentation." I think that most ham projects are characterized by brilliant work, compromised by inadequate attention to requirements, design, and docs. As painful as it is, and I know from decades of experience, developers need to pay more attention to those items, and slow mad rush to release. At my company, we found that we always came in ahead of schedule and budget, with superlative products, because we spent the time to do software engineering correctly. Would you have a house built by having a load of pipes, lumber and so on dumped in your yard, and telling some contractor to "just build it"? This is not limited to hams...I recently spent time with some scientists who were doing brilliant work, and they paid the price for the same lack of rigor. In several cases, they had to hire other PhDs to reverse-engineer what they had done, and document it. Imagine the cost of hiring a few PhDs for a year just to "discover" what had already been discovered!




--
72/73 de Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua


Rich NE1EE
 

On 2021-06-10 12:43:+0100, you wrote:

Way back around 1971 I was part of the 3 month study team for specifying and costing the Ptarmigan System.
<snip> I didn't notice if the expert was wearing rose tinted spectacles...
Allan G3PIY
Important note! I closed my engineering company years ago. My comments here are not directed toward individuals, nor are they meant to pat my company's back. There is a legacy that does that just fine. I am hoping to put ideas on the table, and support them with professional experience.

In the late 1990s, a CEO of an industrial systems company, familiar with our work, contacted us regarding a $10M project that had gone astray, and wondered if we'd be willing to take it on. I said I'd check out, and get back. I went personally, because of my perception of the delicacy needed, in light of their internal struggles. The VP of engineering whom I met, looked at me and said that it was clear I had been around the block (greying hair, y'see), and wondered what I brought to the table. So we chatted. I decided that I'd spend some time just getting to know folks and the situation, and eventually we took on the project. I said that in the beginning, they should not think of us as taking over, but rather as well-paid secretaries, taking notes about the project.

At one point, early in the game, by mathematically modelling a system, we found a major design flaw. Rather than say that, we said that we had apparently made a mistake in our calculations, and asked for help finding the error. The story is long and colorful, but the result was that they discovered their design flaw. It was a turning point for us, as they began to see the value of our engineering approach.

Somewhere along the line, one of their engineers brought me an engineering journal (I forget the name), with an article about the Cheyenne Mountain Upgrade Program, which was in serious trouble by 1994. (Please see "Status of the Cheyenne Mountain Upgrade Program (Letter
Report, 09/01/94, GAO/AIMD-94-175)").

In the article, the /new/ contractor, who was apparently ahead of schedule and below projected costs, was asked why they were doing so well. (I understand that the project was completed by 1999.) The reply, as I remember the article, was to the effect that they constantly were in communication internally, and constantly critically reviewed requirements, designs, and proposed development. The engineer who gave me the article mentioned that it was exactly what we were saying was responsible for our successes. We wound up deeply embedded in the $10M project, and delivered significant critical parts of the final system. They continued to be a great client for many years.

As you can imagine, I have a large store of such stories that I will do my best to refrain from sharing. ;-) I believe that significant contributions to my company's success were a) learning from others' mistakes, so that I didn't repeat them, and b) learning from others' successes, so that I didn't reinvent the wheel. That freed up a lot of time to really enjoy turning out some very rewarding projects.








--
72/73 de Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua