Continuum mode


Nick Hall-Patch
 

The incorporation of "Continuum mode" such as RFSpace's  SpectraVue provides has come up a couple of times over the years (message #63341 and others), but so far as I know, has not been incorporated into SDR Console.

(from SpectraVue manual:  "A continuum display for measuring spectral power over the entire span and/or the peak power within the span.")

The power is a single value displayed over time. The span can be set from one Hz to the full span being monitored.  It's derived from the FFT displayed.


Does any SDR software other than SpectraVue offer this capability?

Thanks.

Nick


Simon Brown
 

Hi Nick,

 

I now have time to add this. I assume you would want the value plotted against time, similar to the signal history?

 

A screenshot of SpectraVue in continuum mode would be appreciated.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nick Hall-Patch via groups.io
Sent: 14 March 2022 19:02
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

The incorporation of "Continuum mode" such as RFSpace's  SpectraVue provides has come up a couple of times over the years (message #63341 and others), but so far as I know, has not been incorporated into SDR Console.

(from SpectraVue manual:  "A continuum display for measuring spectral power over the entire span and/or the peak power within the span.")

The power is a single value displayed over time. The span can be set from one Hz to the full span being monitored.  It's derived from the FFT displayed.

Does any SDR software other than SpectraVue offer this capability?

Thanks.

Nick


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sm6fhz
 

Hi.
Here are some I have taken.

This one is from 1296 MHz me moving the dish from +40 deg elevation down to -10 deg back up to +10 deg and there moving in Az from 120 deg to 225 deg and then down to 0 deg elevation at the end.

1296 MHz ground noise

This one is a drift test letting the Moon pass through the beam of my dish at 5760 MHz showing the thermal noise of the Moon.
SM6FHZ Moon noise 2016-04-09

These are just two examples of how you can use the Continuum mode. There are many more fun things you can measure using this mode displaying the noise in the full sampled BW.

Looking forward to see it implemented in SDR Console :-) Makes me happy.

If you need more info / input / discussion please let me know.

73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Nick Hall-Patch
 

Thanks for the quick reply, Simon.

I hate to use other folks' software as a reference when talking to a developer, but what SpectraVue does for Continuum mode is just fine for my purposes.  However, SpectraVue talks only to RFSpace SDRs, and however good those radios might be, they are mostly historical.

SDR Console, however, talks to many SDRs, so more useful now and in the future for more users.

I hope that the enclosed give you a better idea of what SpectraVue' Continuum looks like.   Although  my example SpectraVueContinuumDisplay.png shows a 1300kHz span, it can be reduced to any span available within the original sampling.  (SpectraVue2DPlotDisplay.png is the equivalent 2D plot).   It can be used either with a recorded file, as in this example, or during live listening, which is my present need.  Continuum mode in SpectraVue can also record .csv files.

SVueManualContinuum.png   is  from the SpectraVue manual.   I'm sure that Moe Wheatley would offer advice, although might be forgiven for not immediately knowing all the details after all the elapsed time from his writing SpectraVue.

Thanks for considering this.

Nick




At 19:12 2022-03-14, Simon Brown wrote:

Hi Nick,

Â

I now have time to add this. I assume you would want the value plotted against time, similar to the signal history?

Â

A screenshot of SpectraVue in continuum mode would be appreciated.

Â

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

Â

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nick Hall-Patch via groups.ioSent: 14 March 2022 19:02To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.ioSubject: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

Â

The incorporation of "Continuum mode" such as RFSpace's  SpectraVue provides has come up a couple of times over the years (message #63341 and others), but so far as I know, has not been incorporated into SDR Console.(from SpectraVue manual:  "A continuum display for measuring spectral power over the entire span and/or the peak power within the span.")The power is a single value displayed over time. The span can be set from one Hz to the full span being monitored.  It's derived from the FFT displayed.Does any SDR software other than SpectraVue offer this capability?Thanks.Nick


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Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada


sm6fhz
 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Charles Suckling
 

Hi Simon

I have been able to use Spectravue in the past in conjunction with SDR-Console by outputting IQ via the CW skimmer option and feeding that via VAC to Spectravue.

Apart from the complication and overhead of having two applications running, the limitation here for me was that the maximum noise bandwidth that seemed to work OK was 48kHz.

This limitation leads to a certain level of fluctuations in the displayed level meaning that measuring small changes in noise is impossible with any accuracy (fluctuation amplitude I think reduces with the square root of the sampled bandwidth.

What would be ideal is for a continuum display to use as much bandwidth as possible to reduce the residual fluctuations to a minimum.

Charlie DL3WDG

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 at 22:48, sm6fhz <ingolf.fhz@...> wrote:
Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Simon Brown
 

Nick,

 

No problem – I’m in very close contact with Pieter @ RFspace; Moe gave me the source for SpectraVue when I was learning about SDR – must have been 10 or more years ago.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nick Hall-Patch via groups.io
Sent: 14 March 2022 20:50
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io; main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Thanks for the quick reply, Simon.

I hate to use other folks' software as a reference when talking to a developer, but what SpectraVue does for Continuum mode is just fine for my purposes.  However, SpectraVue talks only to RFSpace SDRs, and however good those radios might be, they are mostly historical.

SDR Console, however, talks to many SDRs, so more useful now and in the future for more users.

I hope that the enclosed give you a better idea of what SpectraVue' Continuum looks like.   Although  my example SpectraVueContinuumDisplay.png shows a 1300kHz span, it can be reduced to any span available within the original sampling.  (SpectraVue2DPlotDisplay.png is the equivalent 2D plot).   It can be used either with a recorded file, as in this example, or during live listening, which is my present need.  Continuum mode in SpectraVue can also record .csv files.

SVueManualContinuum.png   is  from the SpectraVue manual.   I'm sure that Moe Wheatley would offer advice, although might be forgiven for not immediately knowing all the details after all the elapsed time from his writing SpectraVue.

Thanks for considering this.

Nick




At 19:12 2022-03-14, Simon Brown wrote:


Hi Nick,

Â

I now have time to add this. I assume you would want the value plotted against time, similar to the signal history?

Â

A screenshot of SpectraVue in continuum mode would be appreciated.

Â

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

Â

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nick Hall-Patch via groups.ioSent: 14 March 2022 19:02To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.ioSubject: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

Â

The incorporation of "Continuum mode" such as RFSpace's  SpectraVue provides has come up a couple of times over the years (message #63341 and others), but so far as I know, has not been incorporated into SDR Console.(from SpectraVue manual:  "A continuum display for measuring spectral power over the entire span and/or the peak power within the span.")The power is a single value displayed over time. The span can be set from one Hz to the full span being monitored.  It's derived from the FFT displayed.Does any SDR software other than SpectraVue offer this capability?Thanks.Nick


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Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada


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Simon Brown
 

Hi,

 

That’s fine. I can get almost all work done, then there’s fine tuning. I think a docking window like the Signal History is the correct solution.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz
Sent: 14 March 2022 21:48
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


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sm6fhz
 

Hi.
Yes, a docking window is the preferred solution.
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


sm6fhz
 

Nick.
I am sorry if I hijacked this thread you started.
But the Continuum Mode is very close to my heart and I have been arguing / asking / proposing for it since 2014.
It would be a most welcome addition to the great functions in SDR Console.
Thanks for bringing it up again, Nick!
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Nick Hall-Patch
 

No problem, Ingolf.   The more the merrier...(is there a Scandinavian version of that saying?)


73

Nick


At 08:39 2022-03-15, sm6fhz wrote:
Nick.
I am sorry if I hijacked this thread you started.
But the Continuum Mode is very close to my heart and I have been arguing / asking / proposing for it since 2014.
It would be a most welcome addition to the great functions in SDR Console.
Thanks for bringing it up again, Nick!
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada


swedane
 

Yep, kind off:
Ju gladare desto bättre.
Or more precisely:
Ju fler desto bättre.

(sorry for butting in)


sm6fhz
 

Not at all.
Glad you found the positive saying!
The one I came to think about mirrors the Scandinavian "Jantelagen" and misery and gloom.
Raising a finger of warning, do not indulge!
För mycket skämmer. (Too much spoils it all).
It probably emerges from the tough times when starvation prevailed here.
But sometimes we can be merry as well :-)
But now we are maybe too far off from the topic; Continuum Mode.
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ
 


sm6fhz
 

Hi.
I would like to add two more points to the short spec for the Continuum Mode function:

  • Possibility to set a smaller BW for the measurement than the sampled BW and to set where this BW shall be in frequency (within the sampled range).
  • The cursor (when moved into the plot) to show the actual indicated value at it's position in the graph. Where it shall show can be discussed, but close to the cursor would be one possibility. There are probably many alternatives where to show the number.
This is because with the now available very broad band SDR's (e.g. RX888 etc.) it might be impractical or undesirable to measure over the entire sampled BW due to spurious signals, unwanted signals or other limitations.
The cursor reading has earlier proven to be a very practical feature when using Continuum Mode.
I hope these are feasible functions to implement.

73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


jdow
 

Heh heh - processing in the frequency domain makes a lot of this easy. The chief issue is the current FFT resolution compared the bandwidth you want. The "cheap, quick, and dirty" solution is sum the power in all the bins within the bandwidth you want. I suspect using some shaping on that would add a decimal place to the accuracy as well as more processing demand on the system.

Now, if you use receivers as the filtering mechanism running a reverse FFT on that bandwidth (and a little bit more which will be super close to zero power and gives a power of two number of FFT steps) gives you time domain I and Q signals. And, I wish SDRC did this so its S in its SINAD fiddling would not be spoofable, square I, square Q, sum them together, and take 10 log that power equivalent. That gives the continuum measurement as well as a very good S for calculating SINAD ratios. (As Simon curls up in a corner screaming "I didn't read that! I don't wanna do it!")

(Snarky today Joanne? Yeah, just had the telephone guy come to deal with noisy phone lines when it gets windy. It was still air. So, in another half hour the internet vanishes here as the afternoon winds kick up. This time it's war. A couple days ago the noise made a telephone consult with my doctor a miserable series of "say again" and CRACKLE! CRACKLE! CRACKLE!)

{^_^}

On 20220316 08:33:43, sm6fhz wrote:
Hi.
I would like to add two more points to the short spec for the Continuum Mode function:

  • Possibility to set a smaller BW for the measurement than the sampled BW and to set where this BW shall be in frequency (within the sampled range).
  • The cursor (when moved into the plot) to show the actual indicated value at it's position in the graph. Where it shall show can be discussed, but close to the cursor would be one possibility. There are probably many alternatives where to show the number.
This is because with the now available very broad band SDR's (e.g. RX888 etc.) it might be impractical or undesirable to measure over the entire sampled BW due to spurious signals, unwanted signals or other limitations.
The cursor reading has earlier proven to be a very practical feature when using Continuum Mode.
I hope these are feasible functions to implement.

73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Conrad, PA5Y
 

Hello Simon, I really appreciate you adding this feature. I do have SpectraVue and an SDR-IP and in the past like Charles I used SDRC with Perseus and the IQ outputs as inputs for SpectraVue. Very cumbersome!

 

Let’s get it working and then I have some other ideas.

 

This will be really useful.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown via groups.io
Sent: 15 March 2022 06:42
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi,

 

That’s fine. I can get almost all work done, then there’s fine tuning. I think a docking window like the Signal History is the correct solution.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz
Sent: 14 March 2022 21:48
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


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Simon Brown
 

So,

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth è Count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 17 March 2022 09:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hello Simon, I really appreciate you adding this feature. I do have SpectraVue and an SDR-IP and in the past like Charles I used SDRC with Perseus and the IQ outputs as inputs for SpectraVue. Very cumbersome!

 

Let’s get it working and then I have some other ideas.

 

This will be really useful.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown via groups.io
Sent: 15 March 2022 06:42
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi,

 

That’s fine. I can get almost all work done, then there’s fine tuning. I think a docking window like the Signal History is the correct solution.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz
Sent: 14 March 2022 21:48
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


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Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


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Simon Brown
 

Typo.

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth with have a count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 17 March 2022 10:39
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

So,

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth è Count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 17 March 2022 09:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hello Simon, I really appreciate you adding this feature. I do have SpectraVue and an SDR-IP and in the past like Charles I used SDRC with Perseus and the IQ outputs as inputs for SpectraVue. Very cumbersome!

 

Let’s get it working and then I have some other ideas.

 

This will be really useful.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown via groups.io
Sent: 15 March 2022 06:42
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi,

 

That’s fine. I can get almost all work done, then there’s fine tuning. I think a docking window like the Signal History is the correct solution.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz
Sent: 14 March 2022 21:48
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


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jdow
 

Figure one signal is present, a unit gain (0 dBfs) sinewave. Without shaping it will appear in one or two bins ideally. You take the power level for all bins within the bandwidth Y and sum their power, not voltage, of course. It's independent of the X bandwidth. Scaling would be the same as you use for the spectrum display.

Or take the FFT array of values, multiply each cell by your calculated IF filter shape, pick a bundle of values around the center of the filter to get a nice power of two bin count, take reverse FFT, pseudo power = I^2 + Q^2, Nominally ir should have scaling to make that come out as 0 dBfs for that single sinewave signal. Then the real world should sort of fall out of what you have with no further work. (Yes, I am fixated on I^2 + Q^2 pseudo power.)

{O.-}

On 20220317 03:45:40, Simon Brown wrote:

Typo.

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth with have a count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 17 March 2022 10:39
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

So,

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth è Count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 17 March 2022 09:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hello Simon, I really appreciate you adding this feature. I do have SpectraVue and an SDR-IP and in the past like Charles I used SDRC with Perseus and the IQ outputs as inputs for SpectraVue. Very cumbersome!

 

Let’s get it working and then I have some other ideas.

 

This will be really useful.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown via groups.io
Sent: 15 March 2022 06:42
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi,

 

That’s fine. I can get almost all work done, then there’s fine tuning. I think a docking window like the Signal History is the correct solution.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz
Sent: 14 March 2022 21:48
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


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Tony_AD0VC
 

I wouldn't think that the RBW matters for this. Just sum all X bins. If RBW is smaller then X will be bigger and there will be less power in each bin. Sum of the bins will be the same for a given total bandwidth.

Tony


From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> on behalf of Simon Brown <simon@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 4:45 AM
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode
 

Typo.

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth with have a count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown
Sent: 17 March 2022 10:39
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

So,

 

Given:

  • Center frequency & bandwidth è Count of FFT bins = X (values in dBm)
  • Resolution bandwidth = Y Hz

 

What’s the formula for the actual continuum value when these X bins are used?

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 17 March 2022 09:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hello Simon, I really appreciate you adding this feature. I do have SpectraVue and an SDR-IP and in the past like Charles I used SDRC with Perseus and the IQ outputs as inputs for SpectraVue. Very cumbersome!

 

Let’s get it working and then I have some other ideas.

 

This will be really useful.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simon Brown via groups.io
Sent: 15 March 2022 06:42
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi,

 

That’s fine. I can get almost all work done, then there’s fine tuning. I think a docking window like the Signal History is the correct solution.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz
Sent: 14 March 2022 21:48
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Continuum mode

 

Hi.
Here is an early message (May 2014) with an tentative short-spec for the Continuum Mode:
https://sdr-radio.groups.io/g/main/message/23048
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


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