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Re: Noise reduction comments

Bob Edwards
 

OK Siegfried,
NR4 (at least for me) seems less effective than NR1 because I hear more artifacts with it at all control settings. But I run a 32 bit windows 7 system with a low cost nvidia GPU - your radio and mine may behave differently, I wonder?
OK on the external noise gate - that's a good idea - I notice the internal squelch works for FM only. I have Virtual Audio Cable operating, so could hook up external programs if need be. I've used VST based components before now like that for mic processing. Does add latency, however.
Re: Noise reduction comments

Siegfried Jackstien
 

I prefer nr4 on my everyday use on qo100
Yes that water gurgling background is there but
Its not very strong (loud) and behind sdr console i use Voicemeter potatoe (banana works similar)
That potatoe mixer had a noise gate and that cuts off that water gurgling completely
So... Nr4 together with the gate in the mixer makes audio almost like on a local fm repeater (with squelch closing in speech pauses)
DG9BFC sigi 


Am 10.04.2022 11:35 schrieb Bob Edwards <bob.wedwards.be@...>:

Having done a little more listening - it's very close. The OpenHDSDR NR2 produces 'sweeping filter' noises behind the wanted signal. I guess as the signal approaches the noise level, the artifacts really become apparent. Which NR is 'best' probably comes down to conditions on the day and your particular ears/brain.
Bob G4BBY with Hermes-Lite (seriously good little radio with SDR Console)

Re: Noise reduction comments

Bob Edwards
 

Having done a little more listening - it's very close. The OpenHDSDR NR2 produces 'sweeping filter' noises behind the wanted signal. I guess as the signal approaches the noise level, the artifacts really become apparent. Which NR is 'best' probably comes down to conditions on the day and your particular ears/brain.
Bob G4BBY with Hermes-Lite (seriously good little radio with SDR Console)
Noise reduction comments

Bob Edwards
 

I regularly use the noise reduction on SDR Console - it's a great tool for extending the audible range of the receiver down to not much above the noise level.

For SSB, I favour NR1, with the level set at around 10dB. When there is no QSB, this results in reception with very little artifacts. When there is QSB, as the noise level changes rapidly, you do hear quite a lot of 'water gurgling' noises - not complaining, they are much easier to listen to than the incessant, piercing hiss of normal QRN.

I also occasionally use PowerSDR OPenHPSDR . The noise reduction setting NR isn't that great, but NR2 is worth listening to. It sounds like 'voice down a pipe' like SDR Console's NR1, but without the really noticeable gurgling during change of conditions. There are artifacts, but they're well down on the speech. I'd rate it slightly better that SDR Console NR1 by a short head. Worth looking at that algorithm ?
Re: SDR-Console + SATPC32

Oleg Usov
 

Siegfried thank you.

I made corrections in SDR-Console as you recommended.
How can i make synchronization freq at SDR-Console with frequency in SATPC32 and FT-847 ?

Regards,
Oleg
Re: SDR-Console + SATPC32

Siegfried Jackstien
 

you have to have omnirig installed on your pc and under "view" (ribbon bar) click on "select" (very far right) and activate "external radio"

soft now tells you to restart ... (click on "yes")

now you have that external radio just installed but not configured

so look on my screenshot (see added picture)

i guess that should get you on the right track

maybe you have to finetune the if frequency a bit (plus add an offset depending on mode) but at least that should give you a good starting point

dg9bfc sigi

Am 08.04.2022 um 12:20 schrieb Oleg Usov:

I am trying to use SDR Console v3.0.24 build 19-48 to monitor VHF/UHF bands during satellite operation.

Setup here is:
FT-847
SATPC32 with CAT control of trcvr
RTL8232 dongle connected over IF 45.705 MHz into FT-847
RTL dongle is determined by windows7 and implemented  to SDR-Console.

My goal is tuning freq at VHF band by rotating main VFO knob at trcvr and
synchronise waterfall at SDR-Console.

What settings of SDR-Console v3 to make i need ?

Thanks.

SDR-Console + SATPC32

Oleg Usov
 

I am trying to use SDR Console v3.0.24 build 19-48 to monitor VHF/UHF bands during satellite operation.

Setup here is:
FT-847
SATPC32 with CAT control of trcvr
RTL8232 dongle connected over IF 45.705 MHz into FT-847
RTL dongle is determined by windows7 and implemented  to SDR-Console.

My goal is tuning freq at VHF band by rotating main VFO knob at trcvr and
synchronise waterfall at SDR-Console.

What settings of SDR-Console v3 to make i need ?

Thanks.

Re: For Anyone Sharp With Com0Com

rmrrgs
 

Hi,

All set now. Works.
Much thanks for help.

Will blame my ignorance on old-age now.
A truly great excuse for most anything, I've found.

Thanks again, regards,
Bob

On Apr 7, 2022, at 7:00 AM, jdow <jdow@...> wrote:

I've been using com0com for a very long time, about two decades. What does your com0com settings panel show? It's possible it is something not related to com0com. Names are somewhat mutable. Note that you can have several pairs defined.

{^_^}

On 20220407 03:13:38, rmrrgs wrote:
Hi,

Thanks for suggestions and help.

Excellent hint; thanks.

Any thoughts on what that Com0Com 13 might be, or where the "13" came from, or "b." below ?

BTW: is Com0Com what most folks use, or is there a "better" one
          available ?

Regards,
Bob


On Apr 7, 2022, at 1:07 AM, jdow <jdow@...> wrote:

Is it setup something like this?
<cuyCZa8swQR0lQwX.png>

Note the top pair of checkboxes. If they are not selected most programs will not find the "COM" port. Thank MS legacy for that.

{^_^}

On 20220406 11:21:23, rmrrgs wrote:
Hi,

I now again have CSVULB communicating with Console, which talks to my radio (Icom R8600), sorta.

I have ben using Com0Com to set up the Ports.
Understanding COM Ports, and all of the nuances, for me, has been a real battle.

Have the following questions, please, re Com0Com;

a. I set up a simple pair:  COM 6 and COM 8
    I assigned one to CSVULB and one for ConsoleWorks.
    Works

But I see when I look at CSVULB, what shows is:  COM8 Com0Com 13
All I set up was the COM 6 and COM 8

Where did/might this Com0Com 13 come from ?
The 6 and the 8 seem to be the actual connection, but am very confused
over where the 13 came from, and what, if anything, might be using it.

b. Let me ask another one:

While playing and trying to set all of this up again, I noticed that even with no Ports selected in Console,
there is still communication betweenConsole and the radio.
How can this be ?

Regards,
Bob




Re: For Anyone Sharp With Com0Com

jdow
 

I've been using com0com for a very long time, about two decades. What does your com0com settings panel show? It's possible it is something not related to com0com. Names are somewhat mutable. Note that you can have several pairs defined.

{^_^}

On 20220407 03:13:38, rmrrgs wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for suggestions and help.

Excellent hint; thanks.

Any thoughts on what that Com0Com 13 might be, or where the "13" came from, or "b." below ?

BTW: is Com0Com what most folks use, or is there a "better" one
          available ?

Regards,
Bob


On Apr 7, 2022, at 1:07 AM, jdow <jdow@...> wrote:

Is it setup something like this?
<cuyCZa8swQR0lQwX.png>

Note the top pair of checkboxes. If they are not selected most programs will not find the "COM" port. Thank MS legacy for that.

{^_^}

On 20220406 11:21:23, rmrrgs wrote:
Hi,

I now again have CSVULB communicating with Console, which talks to my radio (Icom R8600), sorta.

I have ben using Com0Com to set up the Ports.
Understanding COM Ports, and all of the nuances, for me, has been a real battle.

Have the following questions, please, re Com0Com;

a. I set up a simple pair:  COM 6 and COM 8
    I assigned one to CSVULB and one for ConsoleWorks.
    Works

But I see when I look at CSVULB, what shows is:  COM8 Com0Com 13
All I set up was the COM 6 and COM 8

Where did/might this Com0Com 13 come from ?
The 6 and the 8 seem to be the actual connection, but am very confused
over where the 13 came from, and what, if anything, might be using it.

b. Let me ask another one:

While playing and trying to set all of this up again, I noticed that even with no Ports selected in Console,
there is still communication betweenConsole and the radio.
How can this be ?

Regards,
Bob



Re: For Anyone Sharp With Com0Com

rmrrgs
 

Hi,

Thanks for suggestions and help.

Excellent hint; thanks.

Any thoughts on what that Com0Com 13 might be, or where the "13" came from, or "b." below ?

BTW: is Com0Com what most folks use, or is there a "better" one
          available ?

Regards,
Bob


On Apr 7, 2022, at 1:07 AM, jdow <jdow@...> wrote:

Is it setup something like this?
<cuyCZa8swQR0lQwX.png>

Note the top pair of checkboxes. If they are not selected most programs will not find the "COM" port. Thank MS legacy for that.

{^_^}

On 20220406 11:21:23, rmrrgs wrote:
Hi,

I now again have CSVULB communicating with Console, which talks to my radio (Icom R8600), sorta.

I have ben using Com0Com to set up the Ports.
Understanding COM Ports, and all of the nuances, for me, has been a real battle.

Have the following questions, please, re Com0Com;

a. I set up a simple pair:  COM 6 and COM 8
    I assigned one to CSVULB and one for ConsoleWorks.
    Works

But I see when I look at CSVULB, what shows is:  COM8 Com0Com 13
All I set up was the COM 6 and COM 8

Where did/might this Com0Com 13 come from ?
The 6 and the 8 seem to be the actual connection, but am very confused
over where the 13 came from, and what, if anything, might be using it.

b. Let me ask another one:

While playing and trying to set all of this up again, I noticed that even with no Ports selected in Console,
there is still communication betweenConsole and the radio.
How can this be ?

Regards,
Bob


Re: For Anyone Sharp With Com0Com

jdow
 

Is it setup something like this?


Note the top pair of checkboxes. If they are not selected most programs will not find the "COM" port. Thank MS legacy for that.

{^_^}

On 20220406 11:21:23, rmrrgs wrote:

Hi,

I now again have CSVULB communicating with Console, which talks to my radio (Icom R8600), sorta.

I have ben using Com0Com to set up the Ports.
Understanding COM Ports, and all of the nuances, for me, has been a real battle.

Have the following questions, please, re Com0Com;

a. I set up a simple pair:  COM 6 and COM 8
    I assigned one to CSVULB and one for ConsoleWorks.
    Works

But I see when I look at CSVULB, what shows is:  COM8 Com0Com 13
All I set up was the COM 6 and COM 8

Where did/might this Com0Com 13 come from ?
The 6 and the 8 seem to be the actual connection, but am very confused
over where the 13 came from, and what, if anything, might be using it.

b. Let me ask another one:

While playing and trying to set all of this up again, I noticed that even with no Ports selected in Console,
there is still communication betweenConsole and the radio.
How can this be ?

Regards,
Bob

For Anyone Sharp With Com0Com

rmrrgs
 

Hi,

I now again have CSVULB communicating with Console, which talks to my radio (Icom R8600), sorta.

I have ben using Com0Com to set up the Ports.
Understanding COM Ports, and all of the nuances, for me, has been a real battle.

Have the following questions, please, re Com0Com;

a. I set up a simple pair:  COM 6 and COM 8
    I assigned one to CSVULB and one for ConsoleWorks.
    Works

But I see when I look at CSVULB, what shows is:  COM8 Com0Com 13
All I set up was the COM 6 and COM 8

Where did/might this Com0Com 13 come from ?
The 6 and the 8 seem to be the actual connection, but am very confused
over where the 13 came from, and what, if anything, might be using it.

b. Let me ask another one:

While playing and trying to set all of this up again, I noticed that even with no Ports selected in Console,
there is still communication betweenConsole and the radio.
How can this be ?

Regards,
Bob
Re: Default audio volume?

Max
 

On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 07:35 PM, D M wrote:
I think i found the problem. If i select the "use current playback device" menu option and unselect apply level, then it sticks.
user error :-)
Great to hear it's sorted!

Max
Re: Default audio volume?

Siegfried Jackstien
 

Go on Simons page
Install latest BETA 
We are at build number 2547 now
Dg9bfc sigi

Am 02.04.2022 20:35 schrieb "D M via groups.io" <jumboman@...>:

I think i found the problem. If i select the "use current playback device" menu option and unselect apply level, then it sticks.
user error :-)

Thank you all
deep

Re: Default audio volume?

D M
 

I think i found the problem. If i select the "use current playback device" menu option and unselect apply level, then it sticks.
user error :-)

Thank you all
deep
Re: Default audio volume?

D M
 

I have  3.1 build 2496. i see there is a newer one. will try that. 

Thanks Max
deep
Re: Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

Conrad, PA5Y
 

Ooh I have no idea, I am not clever enough to understand the code. The source code for map65 is available. I must confess that I use SDR as a tool. I can do hardware and simple mechanics.

 

Conrad

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 02 April 2022 17:32
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

Off the top of my head the software probably should be able to run a variant on a Costas loop on the two receiver's signals to null the signal on a given polarization and then use the 90 degrees off polarization for demodulation. But I bet they are using the chosen sampling technique for good reason.

{^_^}

On 20220402 08:24:26, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Yes, this is exactly what I use. I have a coherent receiver on 144 down to baseband. I will be doing the same on 50 and 432 very soon. I can set up slave receivers with fixed polarisations for the weak stuff and I have an adaptive all band RX using MAP65 software. If you are interested in how it works, search for Link RF IQ+, UADC4, Linrad and MAP65. MAP65 determines the optimal (max SNR) by running the decoders at incremented polarisation angles. All in a few seconds.

 

It keeps me interested.

 

Regards

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 02 April 2022 17:10
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

This is where coherent front ends and A/D conversion can be a wonderful tool, I bet.

On RX you have to antennas all the way through to baseband (for CW or SSB). At baseband you sum the two channels to favor LHCP, RHCP, and 90 degrees off a linear polarization null. Then no matter what the other guy transmits you have optimal reception running. And the LP can track rotation shift. With SDRs this is all a simple matter of CPU/GPU cycles and comparatively not that many of them once you have the basic hardware up in the air.

{^_^}


On 20220401 00:53:34, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Good morning sigi.

 

On 2m EME most stations TX linear so I use a 2 channel coherent RX and deal with spatial and offsets and faraday rotation with a combination of an adaptive RX and 4 decoders running at 0, 45, 90 and 135deg fixed. On CW I just use the adaptive RX but sadly these days there is not much CW activity on 2m EME.

 

On TX if you TX CP to a linear station then the maximum ‘hit’ you can take is 3dB.This is versus a perfectly aligned linear TX/RX which hardly ever happens. Another way of thinking about this is no matter what the spatial offset and faraday rotation effect you will always be heard by a linear polarisation station. It is like transmitting at all linear polarisations as the signal rotates. The 3dB hit can be compensated with a bigger PA.

 

The other stations who TX CP also receive linear so you never get the situation where one station is RHCP and the other is LHCP which of course would result in no signal. I have never in 6 years operating from here experienced this, not once in 1400 QSOs.

 

I hope that makes sense, if you want to know more we should perhaps take it offline.

 

I use cellflex LCF78-50 and LCF12-50 cables, they are better and cheaper that ‘ham cables’ on RX I use ultraflexx 7 because all my LNAs are at the mast head.

 

I like EME, it presents interesting challenges and my rented farmhouse has just enough space to do it reasonably well. On 2m noise (even here) is becoming a limitation. I have one neighbour, that is all you need 😊

 

Regards

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

 

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 01 April 2022 01:28
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

a bit off topic but who cares ?!?

you wrote on your page that you always tx circular ... for eme ... should you not tx circular rh and receive circular lh ?!? (just thinking)

nice antenna farm ... and i like the idea how you solved elevation for your 6m beam :-)

maybe even more as 8k if you count all the cables and boxes and antennas (plus rotators, poles, etc etc)

if you have very low loss cables (and high quality coax connectors) they can become quite expensive ...

greetz sigi dg9bfc

Am 31.03.2022 um 23:31 schrieb Conrad, PA5Y:

I have a few antennas and a few more to put up this year. I think I have spent 8k or so.

 

https://www.qrz.com/db/PA5Y

 

Conrad

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:46
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

8k for antennas?? ok that gives you a 100 feet pole and a nice mulitiband yagi (like a big optibeam or similar)

i only use wires thrown in some trees ... much cheaper and you have some spare money for rigs, amp etc.

:-)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 31.03.2022 um 22:37 schrieb Conrad, PA5Y:

Your thinking is all wrong Sigi, you need to spend it on antennas 😊 they represent the best value for money 😊

Of course, this is entirely academic because I no longer have 8k + GPB for radio.

 

I spent it on antennas.

 

Conrad

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:31
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

8k??

 

outch ...

 

you can get a new shortwave rig, a new vhf uhf rig ... and have some spare for a kilowatt amp ... for 8k

 

and you wrote it STARTS at 8k ... guessing with options you can get to over 10 grand in the end

 

dg9bfc sigi

 

Am 31.03.2022 um 20:05 schrieb Simon Brown:

> Price starts at about Euro 8k I think, then you add the options.

> 

> Simon Brown, G4ELI

> https://www.sdr-radio.com

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Conrad, PA5Y

> Sent: 31 March 2022 18:48

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Hello Simon, it looks like a very capable piece of hardware. I looked

> at the online shop and it appears to be unavailable now , do you have

> any idea of what the price will be? The LO PN is without the

> downconverter section is about the same as the S3 (from what I can

> gather) but the SFDR with the downconverter is not great. It will be

> very good on MW I expect. I am getting interested in MW DX.

> 

> Noise figure @ 800MHz = 9dB with the preamp on,  which means that you

> will need an external LNA. So, you end up with about 75dB of dynamic

> range in this region with an LNA. Also, the image rejection could have

> done with being 20dB better. However, I am mindful that it works to

> 8GHz. Image rejection can be improved by the use of a bandpass filter

> for the band in question, so it is not a deal breaker.

> 

> So, a very nice piece of test gear.

> 

> It really depends on the price.

> 

> Regards

> 

> Conrad PA5Y

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Simon Brown via groups.io

> Sent: 31 March 2022 16:15

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Conrad,

> 

> FWIW I'm playing with the WinRadio Excelsior Ultra - now this is some

> receiver!

> 

> https://www.winradio.com/home/g69ddce.htm

> 

> This is quiet!

> 

> Simon Brown, G4ELI

> https://www.sdr-radio.com

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Conrad, PA5Y

> Sent: 30 March 2022 15:28

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Hello Brian

> 

>> Yes sub 1dB noise figures definitely cost dynamic range.

> That is true and unnecessary, perhaps I misunderstand but you seem to

> be indicating that I am advocating sub 1dB noise figures on 144MHz. I

> am not and Chris Bartram was absolutely right.

> 

> I said, earlier in the thread.

> 

> ....... dynamic range is certainly not optional. I put systems

> together based upon total system analysis which includes both noise

> figure and dynamic range. On 2m with a 1dB NF which is a little better

> than needed for terrestrial operation in my semi-rural location. I use

> the free AppCAD program for system noise figure and dynamic range

> analysis, although a spreadsheet also works fine.

> 

> I think that a system noise figure of 1dB on 2m is better than needed.

> I agree that 2dB is good enough for terrestrial use and even then only

> for the very fortunate. 1dB is slightly better than 2dB. For most

> people who are not on EME,  these days 3-4dB is adequate for

> terrestrial use on 144 MHz due to manmade noise. Also in EU contests

> (including the UKAC) you are better off prioritising dynamic range much of the time.

> 

> Which is why I use a step attenuator after the first LNA stage, I can

> adjust it extremely quickly depending on conditions. Try it, you will

> find that is optimal for the EU VHF DXer who suffers from high station density.

> 

> By the way sub 1dB noise figures on 432MHz and above are very

> worthwhile and certainly not that difficult to achieve these days.

> 

> 73

> 

> Conrad PA5Y

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Brian Morrison via groups.io

> Sent: 30 March 2022 14:52

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:22:30 +0000

> "Conrad, PA5Y" <g0ruz@...> wrote:

> 

>> Yes sub 1dB noise figures definitely cost dynamic range.

> Back in the day (i.e. about 1979/80) Chris Bartam G4DGU of muTek

> determined that 144MHz system noise figures of less than 2dB for

> terrestrial signals were unnecessary due to the total noise at the

> antenna from sky and ground sources. The well-known muTek preamps were

> designed to have a NF of ~0.9dB (using a BF981 or 3SK88 FET with

> noiseless feedback) and then to allow a further 1dB contribution from

> the rest of the receiver to minimise any reduction in dynamic range.

> If you had the complete replacement muTek front-end which had a

> high-level diode-ring mixer, class A LO amplifier chain and post-mixer

> high IP3 IF amp then this DR reduction was much less but many of us had far less money then :(.

> 

> I would not expect these external limitations to have changed in this

> regard over the intervening 40+ years, although the radios have become

> more expensive their performance has improved quite a bit in other respects.

> 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Re: Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

jdow
 

Off the top of my head the software probably should be able to run a variant on a Costas loop on the two receiver's signals to null the signal on a given polarization and then use the 90 degrees off polarization for demodulation. But I bet they are using the chosen sampling technique for good reason.

{^_^}

On 20220402 08:24:26, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Yes, this is exactly what I use. I have a coherent receiver on 144 down to baseband. I will be doing the same on 50 and 432 very soon. I can set up slave receivers with fixed polarisations for the weak stuff and I have an adaptive all band RX using MAP65 software. If you are interested in how it works, search for Link RF IQ+, UADC4, Linrad and MAP65. MAP65 determines the optimal (max SNR) by running the decoders at incremented polarisation angles. All in a few seconds.

 

It keeps me interested.

 

Regards

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 02 April 2022 17:10
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

This is where coherent front ends and A/D conversion can be a wonderful tool, I bet.

On RX you have to antennas all the way through to baseband (for CW or SSB). At baseband you sum the two channels to favor LHCP, RHCP, and 90 degrees off a linear polarization null. Then no matter what the other guy transmits you have optimal reception running. And the LP can track rotation shift. With SDRs this is all a simple matter of CPU/GPU cycles and comparatively not that many of them once you have the basic hardware up in the air.

{^_^}

On 20220401 00:53:34, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Good morning sigi.

 

On 2m EME most stations TX linear so I use a 2 channel coherent RX and deal with spatial and offsets and faraday rotation with a combination of an adaptive RX and 4 decoders running at 0, 45, 90 and 135deg fixed. On CW I just use the adaptive RX but sadly these days there is not much CW activity on 2m EME.

 

On TX if you TX CP to a linear station then the maximum ‘hit’ you can take is 3dB.This is versus a perfectly aligned linear TX/RX which hardly ever happens. Another way of thinking about this is no matter what the spatial offset and faraday rotation effect you will always be heard by a linear polarisation station. It is like transmitting at all linear polarisations as the signal rotates. The 3dB hit can be compensated with a bigger PA.

 

The other stations who TX CP also receive linear so you never get the situation where one station is RHCP and the other is LHCP which of course would result in no signal. I have never in 6 years operating from here experienced this, not once in 1400 QSOs.

 

I hope that makes sense, if you want to know more we should perhaps take it offline.

 

I use cellflex LCF78-50 and LCF12-50 cables, they are better and cheaper that ‘ham cables’ on RX I use ultraflexx 7 because all my LNAs are at the mast head.

 

I like EME, it presents interesting challenges and my rented farmhouse has just enough space to do it reasonably well. On 2m noise (even here) is becoming a limitation. I have one neighbour, that is all you need 😊

 

Regards

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

 

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 01 April 2022 01:28
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

a bit off topic but who cares ?!?

you wrote on your page that you always tx circular ... for eme ... should you not tx circular rh and receive circular lh ?!? (just thinking)

nice antenna farm ... and i like the idea how you solved elevation for your 6m beam :-)

maybe even more as 8k if you count all the cables and boxes and antennas (plus rotators, poles, etc etc)

if you have very low loss cables (and high quality coax connectors) they can become quite expensive ...

greetz sigi dg9bfc

Am 31.03.2022 um 23:31 schrieb Conrad, PA5Y:

I have a few antennas and a few more to put up this year. I think I have spent 8k or so.

 

https://www.qrz.com/db/PA5Y

 

Conrad

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:46
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

8k for antennas?? ok that gives you a 100 feet pole and a nice mulitiband yagi (like a big optibeam or similar)

i only use wires thrown in some trees ... much cheaper and you have some spare money for rigs, amp etc.

:-)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 31.03.2022 um 22:37 schrieb Conrad, PA5Y:

Your thinking is all wrong Sigi, you need to spend it on antennas 😊 they represent the best value for money 😊

Of course, this is entirely academic because I no longer have 8k + GPB for radio.

 

I spent it on antennas.

 

Conrad

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:31
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

8k??

 

outch ...

 

you can get a new shortwave rig, a new vhf uhf rig ... and have some spare for a kilowatt amp ... for 8k

 

and you wrote it STARTS at 8k ... guessing with options you can get to over 10 grand in the end

 

dg9bfc sigi

 

Am 31.03.2022 um 20:05 schrieb Simon Brown:

> Price starts at about Euro 8k I think, then you add the options.

> 

> Simon Brown, G4ELI

> https://www.sdr-radio.com

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Conrad, PA5Y

> Sent: 31 March 2022 18:48

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Hello Simon, it looks like a very capable piece of hardware. I looked

> at the online shop and it appears to be unavailable now , do you have

> any idea of what the price will be? The LO PN is without the

> downconverter section is about the same as the S3 (from what I can

> gather) but the SFDR with the downconverter is not great. It will be

> very good on MW I expect. I am getting interested in MW DX.

> 

> Noise figure @ 800MHz = 9dB with the preamp on,  which means that you

> will need an external LNA. So, you end up with about 75dB of dynamic

> range in this region with an LNA. Also, the image rejection could have

> done with being 20dB better. However, I am mindful that it works to

> 8GHz. Image rejection can be improved by the use of a bandpass filter

> for the band in question, so it is not a deal breaker.

> 

> So, a very nice piece of test gear.

> 

> It really depends on the price.

> 

> Regards

> 

> Conrad PA5Y

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Simon Brown via groups.io

> Sent: 31 March 2022 16:15

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Conrad,

> 

> FWIW I'm playing with the WinRadio Excelsior Ultra - now this is some

> receiver!

> 

> https://www.winradio.com/home/g69ddce.htm

> 

> This is quiet!

> 

> Simon Brown, G4ELI

> https://www.sdr-radio.com

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Conrad, PA5Y

> Sent: 30 March 2022 15:28

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Hello Brian

> 

>> Yes sub 1dB noise figures definitely cost dynamic range.

> That is true and unnecessary, perhaps I misunderstand but you seem to

> be indicating that I am advocating sub 1dB noise figures on 144MHz. I

> am not and Chris Bartram was absolutely right.

> 

> I said, earlier in the thread.

> 

> ....... dynamic range is certainly not optional. I put systems

> together based upon total system analysis which includes both noise

> figure and dynamic range. On 2m with a 1dB NF which is a little better

> than needed for terrestrial operation in my semi-rural location. I use

> the free AppCAD program for system noise figure and dynamic range

> analysis, although a spreadsheet also works fine.

> 

> I think that a system noise figure of 1dB on 2m is better than needed.

> I agree that 2dB is good enough for terrestrial use and even then only

> for the very fortunate. 1dB is slightly better than 2dB. For most

> people who are not on EME,  these days 3-4dB is adequate for

> terrestrial use on 144 MHz due to manmade noise. Also in EU contests

> (including the UKAC) you are better off prioritising dynamic range much of the time.

> 

> Which is why I use a step attenuator after the first LNA stage, I can

> adjust it extremely quickly depending on conditions. Try it, you will

> find that is optimal for the EU VHF DXer who suffers from high station density.

> 

> By the way sub 1dB noise figures on 432MHz and above are very

> worthwhile and certainly not that difficult to achieve these days.

> 

> 73

> 

> Conrad PA5Y

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Brian Morrison via groups.io

> Sent: 30 March 2022 14:52

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:22:30 +0000

> "Conrad, PA5Y" <g0ruz@...> wrote:

> 

>> Yes sub 1dB noise figures definitely cost dynamic range.

> Back in the day (i.e. about 1979/80) Chris Bartam G4DGU of muTek

> determined that 144MHz system noise figures of less than 2dB for

> terrestrial signals were unnecessary due to the total noise at the

> antenna from sky and ground sources. The well-known muTek preamps were

> designed to have a NF of ~0.9dB (using a BF981 or 3SK88 FET with

> noiseless feedback) and then to allow a further 1dB contribution from

> the rest of the receiver to minimise any reduction in dynamic range.

> If you had the complete replacement muTek front-end which had a

> high-level diode-ring mixer, class A LO amplifier chain and post-mixer

> high IP3 IF amp then this DR reduction was much less but many of us had far less money then :(.

> 

> I would not expect these external limitations to have changed in this

> regard over the intervening 40+ years, although the radios have become

> more expensive their performance has improved quite a bit in other respects.

> 

 

 

 

 

 
Re: Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

Conrad, PA5Y
 

Yes, this is exactly what I use. I have a coherent receiver on 144 down to baseband. I will be doing the same on 50 and 432 very soon. I can set up slave receivers with fixed polarisations for the weak stuff and I have an adaptive all band RX using MAP65 software. If you are interested in how it works, search for Link RF IQ+, UADC4, Linrad and MAP65. MAP65 determines the optimal (max SNR) by running the decoders at incremented polarisation angles. All in a few seconds.

 

It keeps me interested.

 

Regards

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 02 April 2022 17:10
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

This is where coherent front ends and A/D conversion can be a wonderful tool, I bet.

On RX you have to antennas all the way through to baseband (for CW or SSB). At baseband you sum the two channels to favor LHCP, RHCP, and 90 degrees off a linear polarization null. Then no matter what the other guy transmits you have optimal reception running. And the LP can track rotation shift. With SDRs this is all a simple matter of CPU/GPU cycles and comparatively not that many of them once you have the basic hardware up in the air.

{^_^}

On 20220401 00:53:34, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Good morning sigi.

 

On 2m EME most stations TX linear so I use a 2 channel coherent RX and deal with spatial and offsets and faraday rotation with a combination of an adaptive RX and 4 decoders running at 0, 45, 90 and 135deg fixed. On CW I just use the adaptive RX but sadly these days there is not much CW activity on 2m EME.

 

On TX if you TX CP to a linear station then the maximum ‘hit’ you can take is 3dB.This is versus a perfectly aligned linear TX/RX which hardly ever happens. Another way of thinking about this is no matter what the spatial offset and faraday rotation effect you will always be heard by a linear polarisation station. It is like transmitting at all linear polarisations as the signal rotates. The 3dB hit can be compensated with a bigger PA.

 

The other stations who TX CP also receive linear so you never get the situation where one station is RHCP and the other is LHCP which of course would result in no signal. I have never in 6 years operating from here experienced this, not once in 1400 QSOs.

 

I hope that makes sense, if you want to know more we should perhaps take it offline.

 

I use cellflex LCF78-50 and LCF12-50 cables, they are better and cheaper that ‘ham cables’ on RX I use ultraflexx 7 because all my LNAs are at the mast head.

 

I like EME, it presents interesting challenges and my rented farmhouse has just enough space to do it reasonably well. On 2m noise (even here) is becoming a limitation. I have one neighbour, that is all you need 😊

 

Regards

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

 

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 01 April 2022 01:28
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

a bit off topic but who cares ?!?

you wrote on your page that you always tx circular ... for eme ... should you not tx circular rh and receive circular lh ?!? (just thinking)

nice antenna farm ... and i like the idea how you solved elevation for your 6m beam :-)

maybe even more as 8k if you count all the cables and boxes and antennas (plus rotators, poles, etc etc)

if you have very low loss cables (and high quality coax connectors) they can become quite expensive ...

greetz sigi dg9bfc

Am 31.03.2022 um 23:31 schrieb Conrad, PA5Y:

I have a few antennas and a few more to put up this year. I think I have spent 8k or so.

 

https://www.qrz.com/db/PA5Y

 

Conrad

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:46
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

8k for antennas?? ok that gives you a 100 feet pole and a nice mulitiband yagi (like a big optibeam or similar)

i only use wires thrown in some trees ... much cheaper and you have some spare money for rigs, amp etc.

:-)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 31.03.2022 um 22:37 schrieb Conrad, PA5Y:

Your thinking is all wrong Sigi, you need to spend it on antennas 😊 they represent the best value for money 😊

Of course, this is entirely academic because I no longer have 8k + GPB for radio.

 

I spent it on antennas.

 

Conrad

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien via groups.io
Sent: 31 March 2022 22:31
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

 

8k??

 

outch ...

 

you can get a new shortwave rig, a new vhf uhf rig ... and have some spare for a kilowatt amp ... for 8k

 

and you wrote it STARTS at 8k ... guessing with options you can get to over 10 grand in the end

 

dg9bfc sigi

 

Am 31.03.2022 um 20:05 schrieb Simon Brown:

> Price starts at about Euro 8k I think, then you add the options.

> 

> Simon Brown, G4ELI

> https://www.sdr-radio.com

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Conrad, PA5Y

> Sent: 31 March 2022 18:48

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Hello Simon, it looks like a very capable piece of hardware. I looked

> at the online shop and it appears to be unavailable now , do you have

> any idea of what the price will be? The LO PN is without the

> downconverter section is about the same as the S3 (from what I can

> gather) but the SFDR with the downconverter is not great. It will be

> very good on MW I expect. I am getting interested in MW DX.

> 

> Noise figure @ 800MHz = 9dB with the preamp on,  which means that you

> will need an external LNA. So, you end up with about 75dB of dynamic

> range in this region with an LNA. Also, the image rejection could have

> done with being 20dB better. However, I am mindful that it works to

> 8GHz. Image rejection can be improved by the use of a bandpass filter

> for the band in question, so it is not a deal breaker.

> 

> So, a very nice piece of test gear.

> 

> It really depends on the price.

> 

> Regards

> 

> Conrad PA5Y

> 

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Simon Brown via groups.io

> Sent: 31 March 2022 16:15

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Conrad,

> 

> FWIW I'm playing with the WinRadio Excelsior Ultra - now this is some

> receiver!

> 

> https://www.winradio.com/home/g69ddce.htm

> 

> This is quiet!

> 

> Simon Brown, G4ELI

> https://www.sdr-radio.com

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Conrad, PA5Y

> Sent: 30 March 2022 15:28

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> Hello Brian

> 

>> Yes sub 1dB noise figures definitely cost dynamic range.

> That is true and unnecessary, perhaps I misunderstand but you seem to

> be indicating that I am advocating sub 1dB noise figures on 144MHz. I

> am not and Chris Bartram was absolutely right.

> 

> I said, earlier in the thread.

> 

> ....... dynamic range is certainly not optional. I put systems

> together based upon total system analysis which includes both noise

> figure and dynamic range. On 2m with a 1dB NF which is a little better

> than needed for terrestrial operation in my semi-rural location. I use

> the free AppCAD program for system noise figure and dynamic range

> analysis, although a spreadsheet also works fine.

> 

> I think that a system noise figure of 1dB on 2m is better than needed.

> I agree that 2dB is good enough for terrestrial use and even then only

> for the very fortunate. 1dB is slightly better than 2dB. For most

> people who are not on EME,  these days 3-4dB is adequate for

> terrestrial use on 144 MHz due to manmade noise. Also in EU contests

> (including the UKAC) you are better off prioritising dynamic range much of the time.

> 

> Which is why I use a step attenuator after the first LNA stage, I can

> adjust it extremely quickly depending on conditions. Try it, you will

> find that is optimal for the EU VHF DXer who suffers from high station density.

> 

> By the way sub 1dB noise figures on 432MHz and above are very

> worthwhile and certainly not that difficult to achieve these days.

> 

> 73

> 

> Conrad PA5Y

> 

> 

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of

> Brian Morrison via groups.io

> Sent: 30 March 2022 14:52

> To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo

> 

> On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:22:30 +0000

> "Conrad, PA5Y" <g0ruz@...> wrote:

> 

>> Yes sub 1dB noise figures definitely cost dynamic range.

> Back in the day (i.e. about 1979/80) Chris Bartam G4DGU of muTek

> determined that 144MHz system noise figures of less than 2dB for

> terrestrial signals were unnecessary due to the total noise at the

> antenna from sky and ground sources. The well-known muTek preamps were

> designed to have a NF of ~0.9dB (using a BF981 or 3SK88 FET with

> noiseless feedback) and then to allow a further 1dB contribution from

> the rest of the receiver to minimise any reduction in dynamic range.

> If you had the complete replacement muTek front-end which had a

> high-level diode-ring mixer, class A LO amplifier chain and post-mixer

> high IP3 IF amp then this DR reduction was much less but many of us had far less money then :(.

> 

> I would not expect these external limitations to have changed in this

> regard over the intervening 40+ years, although the radios have become

> more expensive their performance has improved quite a bit in other respects.

> 

 

 

 

 

 
Re: Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duoy

jdow
 

And a funny language with elastic words that grow into full sentences.

{O.o}

On 20220401 14:48:46, Siegfried Jackstien wrote:

Here in northern dl the winter is.. Hmm.. Not existent... Mild winter with very few snow... And not tooo hot in summer
Like in Cornwall.. But way cheaper houses :-) 

Am 01.04.2022 15:35 schrieb Simon Brown <simon@...>:

Germany in winter - no!

Maybe Spain or France.

Simon Brown, G4ELI
https://www.sdr-radio.com

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Siegfried Jackstien
Sent: 01 April 2022 12:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duoy

here in my area you can get nice places for 100 to 200 k ... expensive ones for 300 to 400 ... but 1.5 milion?? who can pay that much money for a place to live (and/or put antennas on)???

outch

sell your house for a million ... come here, buy a house for 300k ...
and have 700k for antennas :-)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 01.04.2022 um 13:25 schrieb Simon Brown:
> You don't get much for 500k round here, more like £1.5million up.
>
> Simon Brown, G4ELI
> https://www.sdr-radio.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of
> Mag loop Simon
> Sent: 01 April 2022 11:11
> To: main@sdr-radio.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Elad S3 versus Perseus and FDM Duo
>
> Your both wrong, add the 8k to the £500k plus to buy somewhere to put put nice antennas!
>
> Simon g0zen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>









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