Date   

For Simon, From Bob

rmrrgs <rgsrose@...>
 

Hello,

Problems still exists.

I am using the Icom Driver.

Thanks so much for the personal help.
Seems I miss so many of the "nuances" these days, but really enjoy the hobby.

Really appreciated.

Regards,
Bob


Re: For Simon (et al): Console And Icom R8600 Issues

Simon Brown
 

Hi,

 

If no luck then I’ll connect my R8600 tomorrow morning just to check that it works OK.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of rmrrgs
Sent: 14 March 2022 10:26
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] For Simon (et al): Console And Icom R8600 Issues

 

Hi again Simon,

 

Hate to be a pest, really, but am so very anxious to use Console with my new 

Icom R8600.  Hope this isn’t too long, but I tried to include any info. that I thought 

might be helpful.

 

Hope you have had a chance to inspect the LogFile and Screenshot I sent you 

previously, and that there are some hints in it as to what my problem is.

 

As usual, I am sure that I am missing something very basic in the setup, or more likely
just something dumb that I haven’t done, or haven’t done correctly.

 

The following adds a bit more information to my tale of woe:

 

Radio USB cable goes from radio IQ  Port to pc.  No Hub in use.

 

I have installed, per your writeup, the ICOM download “USB I/Q Package for HDSDR”.

Hopefully correctly ?  Not sure.  It was the X64 version.

It installed, apparently, into HDSDR.

 

*Should it (also) be installed into SDRConsole ?  Tried, but the Installer wouldn’t let me.

 

       *Located it in Device Mgr. /Universal Serial Bus Devices. 

        Shows there as: IC-R8600 I/Q Out Port (WinUSB)

 

       **Is this correct ?  Any other places it should be, or anything else related to this

         Driver that I should do ?

 

Tried using HDSDR with the R8600 as an experiment.

 

The LO numbers when tuned in HDSDR, change the R8600 frequency perfectly.

The Tune numbers do not effect the numbers showing in the R8600.

 

The mode buttons in HDSDR do not change the mode in the R8600

The R8600 seems to stay locked on USB, as with Console.

 

Back to Console:

 

Looking at the Console Definitions, I see for the R8600 in “Select Radio/Options” :

               \\?\usb#vid_0c268&pid_ …….   (note the “usb”)  Is this correct ?

 

I select the 8600 in Console, and say START;

 

Console does seem to communicate with the R8600.

 

Changing the tune numbers in Console changes the numbers in

the small panel that appears in the waterfall for Freq. and Span.

Freq: reflects exactly what is shown in the R8600 panel

 

But changing numbers in Console, sometimes, but not all the time,

doesn’t always change exactly what the radio shows. 

Usually, only the highest one or two digits change.

 

Again, what the radio shows always mimics the small panel in the waterfall for Freq.

 
Probably important, and likely a good hint to what is happening:

    *Dragging the small vertical yellow line on the waterfall bottom scale is reflected

     exactly on the radio and also on the small Freq/Scan panel in the Waterfall.

 

 Mode selection buttons (still) can’t get to work.

 

I keep wondering if there is some configuration in the radio itself that I

haven’t configured correctly. Wouldn’t surprise me that the problem may be here, but

no idea what it might be, if so.

 

Best regards, and thanks so much for thoughts and help,

Bob


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Re: Hermes board from Apache Labs

Conrad, PA5Y
 

Hello Ingolf, you can be sure that this is not a scam, did you try emailing Apache for an update? If not, I will do so.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of sm6fhz via groups.io
Sent: 14 March 2022 13:26
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] Hermes board from Apache Labs

 

Hi.
I start a new thread as the former one has grown out of proportion.
Has anyone heard anything from them since placing the order?
I've not heard anything since the order confirmation. 
Their WEB-page with the offer:
https://apache-labs.com/al-products/1022/Open-HPSDR-Hermes-14-bit-ADC-EP3C25-Transceiver-Card-Assembled--Tested.html
has not been updated either since February 11th. Still the same numbers of ordered units.
Are they OK or is there a risk of it being a scam?
It would have been nice if they gave some indication of the progress rather than compact silence.
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Re: Hermes board from Apache Labs

Simon Brown
 

Agreed,

 

Apache labs is not a scam operation.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roy VE7DH
Sent: 14 March 2022 13:13
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Hermes board from Apache Labs

 

I would not worry about a scam. Apache Labs is a legitimate company.

I have heard from contacts in Australia that there will be a delay in shipping, caused no doubt by the worldwide semiconductor shortage. So, you and I will both have to wait a little longer for our new toy, hi.

regards, Roy


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Re: Hermes board from Apache Labs

Roy VE7DH
 

I would not worry about a scam. Apache Labs is a legitimate company.

I have heard from contacts in Australia that there will be a delay in shipping, caused no doubt by the worldwide semiconductor shortage. So, you and I will both have to wait a little longer for our new toy, hi.

regards, Roy


Hermes board from Apache Labs

sm6fhz
 

Hi.
I start a new thread as the former one has grown out of proportion.
Has anyone heard anything from them since placing the order?
I've not heard anything since the order confirmation. 
Their WEB-page with the offer:
https://apache-labs.com/al-products/1022/Open-HPSDR-Hermes-14-bit-ADC-EP3C25-Transceiver-Card-Assembled--Tested.html
has not been updated either since February 11th. Still the same numbers of ordered units.
Are they OK or is there a risk of it being a scam?
It would have been nice if they gave some indication of the progress rather than compact silence.
73 / Ingolf, SM6FHZ


Re: For Simon (et al): Console And Icom R8600 Issues

Simon Brown
 

Hi,

 

You sent the screenshot and logfile on a Saturday, so it may surprise you that I was doing something else over the weekend 😊 .

 

Try a higher bandwidth when starting the radio, I don’t see any errors in the logfile. Try a different USB port.

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of rmrrgs
Sent: 14 March 2022 10:26
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] For Simon (et al): Console And Icom R8600 Issues

 

Hi again Simon,

 

Hate to be a pest, really, but am so very anxious to use Console with my new 

Icom R8600.  Hope this isn’t too long, but I tried to include any info. that I thought 

might be helpful.

 

Hope you have had a chance to inspect the LogFile and Screenshot I sent you 

previously, and that there are some hints in it as to what my problem is.

 

As usual, I am sure that I am missing something very basic in the setup, or more likely
just something dumb that I haven’t done, or haven’t done correctly.

 

The following adds a bit more information to my tale of woe:

 

Radio USB cable goes from radio IQ  Port to pc.  No Hub in use.

 

I have installed, per your writeup, the ICOM download “USB I/Q Package for HDSDR”.

Hopefully correctly ?  Not sure.  It was the X64 version.

It installed, apparently, into HDSDR.

 

*Should it (also) be installed into SDRConsole ?  Tried, but the Installer wouldn’t let me.

 

       *Located it in Device Mgr. /Universal Serial Bus Devices. 

        Shows there as: IC-R8600 I/Q Out Port (WinUSB)

 

       **Is this correct ?  Any other places it should be, or anything else related to this

         Driver that I should do ?

 

Tried using HDSDR with the R8600 as an experiment.

 

The LO numbers when tuned in HDSDR, change the R8600 frequency perfectly.

The Tune numbers do not effect the numbers showing in the R8600.

 

The mode buttons in HDSDR do not change the mode in the R8600

The R8600 seems to stay locked on USB, as with Console.

 

Back to Console:

 

Looking at the Console Definitions, I see for the R8600 in “Select Radio/Options” :

               \\?\usb#vid_0c268&pid_ …….   (note the “usb”)  Is this correct ?

 

I select the 8600 in Console, and say START;

 

Console does seem to communicate with the R8600.

 

Changing the tune numbers in Console changes the numbers in

the small panel that appears in the waterfall for Freq. and Span.

Freq: reflects exactly what is shown in the R8600 panel

 

But changing numbers in Console, sometimes, but not all the time,

doesn’t always change exactly what the radio shows. 

Usually, only the highest one or two digits change.

 

Again, what the radio shows always mimics the small panel in the waterfall for Freq.

 
Probably important, and likely a good hint to what is happening:

    *Dragging the small vertical yellow line on the waterfall bottom scale is reflected

     exactly on the radio and also on the small Freq/Scan panel in the Waterfall.

 

 Mode selection buttons (still) can’t get to work.

 

I keep wondering if there is some configuration in the radio itself that I

haven’t configured correctly. Wouldn’t surprise me that the problem may be here, but

no idea what it might be, if so.

 

Best regards, and thanks so much for thoughts and help,

Bob


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


For Simon (et al): Console And Icom R8600 Issues

rmrrgs <rgsrose@...>
 

Hi again Simon,

 

Hate to be a pest, really, but am so very anxious to use Console with my new 

Icom R8600.  Hope this isn’t too long, but I tried to include any info. that I thought 

might be helpful.

 

Hope you have had a chance to inspect the LogFile and Screenshot I sent you 

previously, and that there are some hints in it as to what my problem is.

 

As usual, I am sure that I am missing something very basic in the setup, or more likely
just something dumb that I haven’t done, or haven’t done correctly.

 

The following adds a bit more information to my tale of woe:

 

Radio USB cable goes from radio IQ  Port to pc.  No Hub in use.

 

I have installed, per your writeup, the ICOM download “USB I/Q Package for HDSDR”.

Hopefully correctly ?  Not sure.  It was the X64 version.

It installed, apparently, into HDSDR.

 

*Should it (also) be installed into SDRConsole ?  Tried, but the Installer wouldn’t let me.

 

       *Located it in Device Mgr. /Universal Serial Bus Devices. 

        Shows there as: IC-R8600 I/Q Out Port (WinUSB)

 

       **Is this correct ?  Any other places it should be, or anything else related to this

         Driver that I should do ?

 

Tried using HDSDR with the R8600 as an experiment.

 

The LO numbers when tuned in HDSDR, change the R8600 frequency perfectly.

The Tune numbers do not effect the numbers showing in the R8600.

 

The mode buttons in HDSDR do not change the mode in the R8600

The R8600 seems to stay locked on USB, as with Console.

 

Back to Console:

 

Looking at the Console Definitions, I see for the R8600 in “Select Radio/Options” :

               \\?\usb#vid_0c268&pid_ …….   (note the “usb”)  Is this correct ?

 

I select the 8600 in Console, and say START;

 

Console does seem to communicate with the R8600.

 

Changing the tune numbers in Console changes the numbers in

the small panel that appears in the waterfall for Freq. and Span.

Freq: reflects exactly what is shown in the R8600 panel

 

But changing numbers in Console, sometimes, but not all the time,

doesn’t always change exactly what the radio shows. 

Usually, only the highest one or two digits change.

 

Again, what the radio shows always mimics the small panel in the waterfall for Freq.

 
Probably important, and likely a good 
hint to what is happening:

    *Dragging the small vertical yellow line on the waterfall bottom scale is reflected

     exactly on the radio and also on the small Freq/Scan panel in the Waterfall.

 

 Mode selection buttons (still) can’t get to work.

 

I keep wondering if there is some configuration in the radio itself that I

haven’t configured correctly. Wouldn’t surprise me that the problem may be here, but

no idea what it might be, if so.

 

Best regards, and thanks so much for thoughts and help,

Bob


Re: RSPdx and SDR Console

jdow
 

2) Kriss, I believe that is Synchronous AM detection mode. Phase lock to the carrier and use that to provide carrier for the demodulation process. It is nice for selective fading conditions. So SAM may be appropriate to his situation.

{^_-}

On 20220313 16:15:51, Kriss Kliegle KA1GJU wrote:

Fabio,
I see some things on your photo that might make your SDRC experience more enjoyable. It appears you are trying to listen to an AM HF BC station on 6975 kHz.
1) The audio passband is not quite right (operator error), it should be centered on the carrier of the AM signal (red arrows).
2) You have sinusoidally amplitude-modulation (SAM) turned on, it's easier to tune in AM mode due to simply aligning the center of the audio passband atop the carrier (yellow arrow)
3) You also have the independent sideband adjustment turned on (green arrow). Unselect it and just use a filter of +/-5.0kHz for most HF BC stations.

You can add a splash of color (colour in UK speak hi hi) by hitting 'View', and 'Colour', and choose a pallete. My other image is using "SpectraView" color pallete. The station is a pirate AM BC station called Mix Radio International, so the bandwidth is not a standard 10kHz signal.

73 Kriss KA1GJU


Re: RSPdx and SDR Console

Kriss Kliegle KA1GJU
 

Fabio,
I see some things on your photo that might make your SDRC experience more enjoyable. It appears you are trying to listen to an AM HF BC station on 6975 kHz.
1) The audio passband is not quite right (operator error), it should be centered on the carrier of the AM signal (red arrows).
2) You have sinusoidally amplitude-modulation (SAM) turned on, it's easier to tune in AM mode due to simply aligning the center of the audio passband atop the carrier (yellow arrow)
3) You also have the independent sideband adjustment turned on (green arrow). Unselect it and just use a filter of +/-5.0kHz for most HF BC stations.

You can add a splash of color (colour in UK speak hi hi) by hitting 'View', and 'Colour', and choose a pallete. My other image is using "SpectraView" color pallete. The station is a pirate AM BC station called Mix Radio International, so the bandwidth is not a standard 10kHz signal.

73 Kriss KA1GJU


Re: RSPdx and SDR Console

Max
 

On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 04:29 PM, <ffiorin@...> wrote:
I  followed  very  "slowly"  the  instructions  you gave  me   and  some  tutorials   I've  found  in  the    web. until  I  obtained    what   you  see  in  the  attached  file.
That's great Fabio. Welcome to SDRC!

You may know I am sure, but floating panes (like the RX DSP shown in your screenshot) can be docked neatly wherever required.

See here, and scroll down to "Docking" just over half way down the page:

https://www.sdr-radio.com/LayoutPanes

73

Max

 


Re: Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

jdow
 

Hm, throttled down a bit the HL2 is about perfect for a really skanky hack. Back in the early 60s I was on two meters with an ARC-1 transceiver. It was a single crystal per channel radio with a 9.72 MHz IF. For transmit it mixed the output of a 9.72 MHz oscillator with the tuner's LO frequency and you have the output. After I was out of college and working in the LA area I had decided SSB was the way to go. I dug into the radio, changed the IF tuning by 280 kHz and used an artifact of my FT-101B for transmit. It had a 10 MHz WWV band that never fed power to the PA stages but did feed it out the transverter output. I modified bias to make it run class AB1 or AB2 in its nicely push pull RF amplifier stages. And I had 2 meter SSB. Now, I still have that ARC-1. In fact I have two, a 10 channel one and a 50 channel one with all the TWA aircraft frequencies of the 1950s in it. I bet I could make one of them into a transverter for an HL2 in a nasty setup. Fortunately, I have lots of other things I am doing so I probably won't get a round-tuit for this job. Ah well. It does appeal to my sense of humor.

I do idly wonder if I could make the PS technology work with it. It would certainly be a conversation starter.

{^_-}

On 20220313 04:36:42, Michael Durkin wrote:

Looks like you can't get those transverter right now ...

I still want one ... not for the transverter part but for the vhf/uhf amp and I hope it has filters

On Sat, Feb 26, 2022, 10:38 AM Siegfried Jackstien <siegfried.jackstien@...> wrote:

or "spread the elbows" a bit to have some room ... they splatter as wide as a barn door that nobody may sit next to them (and splatter in their passband)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 26.02.2022 um 19:35 schrieb Robert Lorenzini:
You don't know anything about contesting. :-) They want the dirtiest signal possible
to keep the enemy at arms length.

Bob - wd6dod

On 2/25/2022 10:22 PM, jdow wrote:
I am not sure why contesters at multi-op stations don't use rigs with the best TX signals they can get. With adequate antenna separation you can place more operators on the same band. It's a serious points increase opportunity. (But, I don't do contests so what do I know? I just go back to an old and maybe current military goal to have two radios on separate antennas on a jeep and use them as ad hoc repeaters. And, yes, jeep. It goes back that far.)

{^_^}

On 20220225 11:38:38, Larry Dodd wrote:
Right on.  Not many amateur radio operators or radio enthusiasts are in a position to pay >$10k for a receiver or transceiver. In reality they don't "need" that level of precision even though its desired. Far surpasses the minimum requirements of the FCC rules. Yes its great to pursue and more power to those that are capable of doing so. Pure Signal is a great achievement.  Can't imagine the dollars spent on high end microphones and audio equipment that are far beyond what is necessary for voice communications. The ultimate is that 24k Gold Plated CW key.
Larry K4LED


On 2/25/2022 18:06:02, jdow <jdow@...> wrote:

There is an economics pressure here. Who is going to be the first company to give up being price competitive in a small commodity market and will that company survive the hit to its bottom line? A LOT of pressure from actual customers will be required to advance the commodity transceiver state of the art.

(And this thread is about the Hermes with it as a proof of concept for more general improvements - and their failures. It's been interesting.)

{o.o}

On 20220225 06:50:24, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Hello I never meant to come across as acrimonious, just insistent.

 

The plot is from a Rohde and Swartz FSUP signal source analyser in this case.

https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/FSUP_bro_en.pdf

 

The LO I used is from Kuhne electronics and is known as the XO1, it was intended as a 116MHz LO for use with 144 MHz transverters. It is not a custom product. It is simple Xtal oscillator with a narrow band PLL. The plot shows its performance when locked to a Leo Bodnar GPSDO at 10MHz.

 

It is normalised to 1Hz so in an SSB BW you can add 68dB to this plot assuming 2400Hz BW for SSB. I do not agree that this performance levels are only obtainable by special equipment. In fact older equipment like the IC-202 used to fair better. New equipment is making a pigs ear of this and transmitters are getting worse. A K3S and a transverter is all you need, or indeed a FDM Duo, Hermes, Flex or ANAN SDR.

 

These radios are all capable of meeting the code of conduct which in practice does have a positive effect. Not perfect but its existence is useful.

 

Now that we have such excellent receivers maybe we should pay attention to the TX chain?

 

This thread was about the Hermes, I apologise for hijacking it.

 

Regards

 

Conrad

 

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 25 February 2022 14:30
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

Um, I am not sure I understand that picture. That is the analyzer's specification or something very custom you have put together? I'm answering both emails here.

If that is the noise level you are insisting everybody meet I suspect you are going to be a very frustrated gentleman for the rest of your life. (Some old rigs never die. They simply make more noise.) The IC7300 might be capable of being tamed with a reference oscillator replacement. But I bet more bits in the D/A are required for that design than exist in reasonably priced D/A converters. Regardless "state of the art" only appears in hand tweaked radios or VERY expensive military or scientific equipment where there is a perceived need. (And codes of conduct are not worth the bits they fill on an exabyte storage array. Cats and humans cannot be herded.)

Even if 7300s are not "clean" as you would have it are they cleaner than their peers on the commercial market? From your complaints I suspect they are not. But it is a point worth asking. I ignored the argument until it got acrimonious.

{^_^}

On 20220225 04:03:42, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Hi, no it is actually 5 different IC7300s tested by 3 different people, including Rob Sherwood. if you have time you can see the plots and some other data that I posted earlier just do a search. I’m in my lunch break or I would do it for you.

 

Yes my TX IS that good but it is easier for me because I use 0dBm transverter drives at 28Mhz and transverters with high quality Xtal local oscillators. The 0dBm from either my K3S or TS-890S is very good indeed. IMD3 from both is better than -50dBc.

 

On 144 MHz,  PN noise at 1kHz separation is -144dBc/Hz and close to 156dBc/Hz at 10kHz. This is with the LO PLL active, free running it is a little better. Composite noise is the same as in this case it is PN dominated. IM3 is -38dBc but more importantly the 7th and 9th orders are better than -80dBc. This is achieved by using tetrode finals on all bands.

 

432 and 1296 are of course worse as the LOs are multiplied from Xtals in the VHF region. However my TX is some 40dB better than an IC-9700 at 1.3GHz at 10kHz separation.

 

Only 50MHz is a little worse due to my TS-890S PA linearity but with the noise on 6m being higher it is acceptable. When I am on FT8 where linearity does not matter it is superb. But who cares we are all on the same ‘channel’.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 25 February 2022 11:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

I suspect your specification is still beyond the state of the art. Is your transmitter that good?

It sounds like the 7300 is cleaner than average close in but has some issues fairly far out. That is a little surprising. I wonder if the "IP+" technology is simply RF feedback to linearize the transmitter stages such as is seen in the old Collins kW SSB amplifiers. I can see that having an issue that depends on the charteristics of the feedback loop. But those are strange characteristics.

I take it the noise peaks are broadband, right? Do they depend on the transmit frequency in any way? It sounds very much like there is a defect in a specific radio near you. Is that the case or are hams measuring this in general? If this affects all the 7300s then the FPGA code will probably have to be reworked to fix the bug. I kinda wish I had one and a nice lab with lots of pertinent test equipment. I doubt Keysight and ICOM would set me up to do it. (It'd be better for them to set up a tiger team of their engineers with the equipment needed to suppress this possible bug.)

{^_^}


On 20220225 01:55:45, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

By clean I mean - can I hear anything of sufficient magnitude to disturb the noise floor anywhere in band, and hence inhibit my ability to receive signals close to the noise floor. The noise floor in a semi-rural location on 28, 50 and 70MHz is not particularly low so I do not feel that this is unreasonable. The biggest problem with the IC7300 is the AM noise bump at 20kHz and 130kHz which is only 60dB down on the carrier when running at 30W on 28MHz. This power level is typical when driving an amplifier.  When modulated with an SSB signal this occupies a considerable amount of bandwidth.  The close in PN -s only -120dBc/Hz at 1kHz and  -130dBc/Hz at 10kHz. The composite noise is -115kHz at 10kHz, this is not what I would consider clean, even close in. The K3S( and a few others) is far better in this respect although the PA has quite poor linearity, especially on 6m.

 

The Hermes will do a much better job with any decent PA, even without pure signal. There are some spurs @ -65dBc which improve with a higher sample rate.  I have not checked these with the V2 firmware but I will do immediately I receive my Hermes from Apache.

 

I do not think that a transceiver at the IC-7300 price point has fixed pre-distortion. As you quite correctly say keeping it under control over temperature and voltage variation would be difficult. Also Icom would almost certainly have mentioned it in their advertising. What the IC7300 does well is manage audio overshoots by using a ‘look ahead’ algorithm. This is maybe where the impression of it having a clean TX comes from.

 

I think that the problem here is that so many transceivers are quite bad, so I can just about accept that the IC-7300 is less bad.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 25 February 2022 10:27
To:
main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

OK, please refresh my mind what you mean by "clean". It certainly appears to be sending something much closer to pure signal concentrated within its intended bandwidth than most other transmitters. I also understand that it is not as good as it can be with full active predistortion. Both might generate increased noise at some significant separation from the intended signal frequency. I am not sure of the mechanism by which this would take place.

As an ornery critter there is nothing I would sit down and declare "clean" without a definition of "clean". I guess I am asking for your definition of the term or even of the term "clean enough".

{O.O}



On 20220225 01:13:11, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

I KNOW for a fact that the IC7300 is not clean. Please provide me some evidence to the contrary. I have measurements with a R&S FSWP Signal analyser out to a 1MHz BW. You guys are looking in an SSB BW which is fine unless you happen to be 130kHz away, then you will hear plenty of splatter from the IC7300. I tested the IC-7300 as a result of hearing this on 50MHz. In other words the lab tests were driven by on air experience.

 

You are spreading misleading and incorrect information.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of oldjackbob via groups.io
Sent: 24 February 2022 23:12
To:
main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 12:24 PM, Max wrote:

I just think if we follow good design and signal chain management that superb, clean signals can also be generated without the need for PS, that's all.

Max,

I disagree. My signal is my signature. Audio clarity is admittedly important but what matters most to me is a splatter-free signal, and in that regard nothing comes close to what PS can produce. As I stated earlier, even the best Class A amplifiers only have -40dB splatter. PS starts at -60db and often pushes -70dB. That means that PS reduces splatter to less than 1% (and at times only 1/10 of 1%) of what even the best traditional equipment can produce.

I also agree with Simon that the 7300 (and also the 7610 for that matter) produces an extremely sharp-edged signal with unarguably less splatter than is achievable with any other non-ANAN radio. It was explained to me by Ray N5LAX that the reason those radios are so clean splatter-wise is because ICOM embedded an algorithm into the firmware that functions very similarly to PS in the sense that it corrects for non-linearity in the PA, but it is a fixed-value (i.e., static) correction only, not a real-time self-adjusting correction value such as is employed by PS. NOTE: I have not been able to verify that info, but that is what was told to me over-the-air by Ray when I commented that I had no idea how the 7300 could produce such a clean, sharp-edged signal. So I'm repeating it here.

IMO it's unwise and short-sighted to summarily dismiss the game-changing value that PS brings to the hobby. Its benefits are so unarguable that I (and Rob Sherwood) often wonder why the big-name radios don't offer it as a standard feature. It's free, so utilize it for goodness sake!

73,

Mark




 

 

 





image001.png


Re: RSPdx and SDR Console

ffiorin@...
 

Hi  

A   lot  of  thanks  to  all  the  members  of  the  group  who  helped  me  to  solve  the  frustrating  problems  I  encountered  with  the  installation  of  SDR Console.. 

I  tried  many  times  after  having  installed  and  uninstalled  program.  I  followed  very  "slowly"  the  instructions  you gave  me   and  some  tutorials   I've  found  in  the    web. until  I  obtained    what   you  see  in  the  attached  file.  Now  -only  now-  i  can  say  that  I  created  many  problems  myself .

Have   a nice  end    of   Sunday   and  thanks  again!

73

Fabio

Il 13/03/2022 01:57 Dale Eshoff WB8CJW <dale.elshoff@...> ha scritto:


You have the frequency set too high.  I believe (2,000 MHz. or 2GHz.) 2 ,000, 000, 000 is the top end for the receiver.  You have 5 ,999, 991, 000 (5, 999 MHz. or nearly 6GHz.) set.  Set it to a frequency you know is active, on-air.


On 3/11/2022 8:13 PM, ffiorin via groups.io wrote:


I  hope  this  is fine


Il 12/03/2022 02:03 Max <radiomax@...> ha scritto:


Fabio

Actually, just realised you are not even displaying the ribbon bar. See picture to get dropdown from little arrow at top of screen and uncheck "Minimize Ribbon Bar". Things will then become a lot more manageable!



Re: Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

Michael Durkin
 

Looks like you can't get those transverter right now ...

I still want one ... not for the transverter part but for the vhf/uhf amp and I hope it has filters

On Sat, Feb 26, 2022, 10:38 AM Siegfried Jackstien <siegfried.jackstien@...> wrote:

or "spread the elbows" a bit to have some room ... they splatter as wide as a barn door that nobody may sit next to them (and splatter in their passband)

dg9bfc sigi

Am 26.02.2022 um 19:35 schrieb Robert Lorenzini:
You don't know anything about contesting. :-) They want the dirtiest signal possible
to keep the enemy at arms length.

Bob - wd6dod

On 2/25/2022 10:22 PM, jdow wrote:
I am not sure why contesters at multi-op stations don't use rigs with the best TX signals they can get. With adequate antenna separation you can place more operators on the same band. It's a serious points increase opportunity. (But, I don't do contests so what do I know? I just go back to an old and maybe current military goal to have two radios on separate antennas on a jeep and use them as ad hoc repeaters. And, yes, jeep. It goes back that far.)

{^_^}

On 20220225 11:38:38, Larry Dodd wrote:
Right on.  Not many amateur radio operators or radio enthusiasts are in a position to pay >$10k for a receiver or transceiver. In reality they don't "need" that level of precision even though its desired. Far surpasses the minimum requirements of the FCC rules. Yes its great to pursue and more power to those that are capable of doing so. Pure Signal is a great achievement.  Can't imagine the dollars spent on high end microphones and audio equipment that are far beyond what is necessary for voice communications. The ultimate is that 24k Gold Plated CW key.
Larry K4LED


On 2/25/2022 18:06:02, jdow <jdow@...> wrote:

There is an economics pressure here. Who is going to be the first company to give up being price competitive in a small commodity market and will that company survive the hit to its bottom line? A LOT of pressure from actual customers will be required to advance the commodity transceiver state of the art.

(And this thread is about the Hermes with it as a proof of concept for more general improvements - and their failures. It's been interesting.)

{o.o}

On 20220225 06:50:24, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Hello I never meant to come across as acrimonious, just insistent.

 

The plot is from a Rohde and Swartz FSUP signal source analyser in this case.

https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/FSUP_bro_en.pdf

 

The LO I used is from Kuhne electronics and is known as the XO1, it was intended as a 116MHz LO for use with 144 MHz transverters. It is not a custom product. It is simple Xtal oscillator with a narrow band PLL. The plot shows its performance when locked to a Leo Bodnar GPSDO at 10MHz.

 

It is normalised to 1Hz so in an SSB BW you can add 68dB to this plot assuming 2400Hz BW for SSB. I do not agree that this performance levels are only obtainable by special equipment. In fact older equipment like the IC-202 used to fair better. New equipment is making a pigs ear of this and transmitters are getting worse. A K3S and a transverter is all you need, or indeed a FDM Duo, Hermes, Flex or ANAN SDR.

 

These radios are all capable of meeting the code of conduct which in practice does have a positive effect. Not perfect but its existence is useful.

 

Now that we have such excellent receivers maybe we should pay attention to the TX chain?

 

This thread was about the Hermes, I apologise for hijacking it.

 

Regards

 

Conrad

 

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 25 February 2022 14:30
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

Um, I am not sure I understand that picture. That is the analyzer's specification or something very custom you have put together? I'm answering both emails here.

If that is the noise level you are insisting everybody meet I suspect you are going to be a very frustrated gentleman for the rest of your life. (Some old rigs never die. They simply make more noise.) The IC7300 might be capable of being tamed with a reference oscillator replacement. But I bet more bits in the D/A are required for that design than exist in reasonably priced D/A converters. Regardless "state of the art" only appears in hand tweaked radios or VERY expensive military or scientific equipment where there is a perceived need. (And codes of conduct are not worth the bits they fill on an exabyte storage array. Cats and humans cannot be herded.)

Even if 7300s are not "clean" as you would have it are they cleaner than their peers on the commercial market? From your complaints I suspect they are not. But it is a point worth asking. I ignored the argument until it got acrimonious.

{^_^}

On 20220225 04:03:42, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

Hi, no it is actually 5 different IC7300s tested by 3 different people, including Rob Sherwood. if you have time you can see the plots and some other data that I posted earlier just do a search. I’m in my lunch break or I would do it for you.

 

Yes my TX IS that good but it is easier for me because I use 0dBm transverter drives at 28Mhz and transverters with high quality Xtal local oscillators. The 0dBm from either my K3S or TS-890S is very good indeed. IMD3 from both is better than -50dBc.

 

On 144 MHz,  PN noise at 1kHz separation is -144dBc/Hz and close to 156dBc/Hz at 10kHz. This is with the LO PLL active, free running it is a little better. Composite noise is the same as in this case it is PN dominated. IM3 is -38dBc but more importantly the 7th and 9th orders are better than -80dBc. This is achieved by using tetrode finals on all bands.

 

432 and 1296 are of course worse as the LOs are multiplied from Xtals in the VHF region. However my TX is some 40dB better than an IC-9700 at 1.3GHz at 10kHz separation.

 

 

Only 50MHz is a little worse due to my TS-890S PA linearity but with the noise on 6m being higher it is acceptable. When I am on FT8 where linearity does not matter it is superb. But who cares we are all on the same ‘channel’.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 25 February 2022 11:49
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

I suspect your specification is still beyond the state of the art. Is your transmitter that good?

It sounds like the 7300 is cleaner than average close in but has some issues fairly far out. That is a little surprising. I wonder if the "IP+" technology is simply RF feedback to linearize the transmitter stages such as is seen in the old Collins kW SSB amplifiers. I can see that having an issue that depends on the charteristics of the feedback loop. But those are strange characteristics.

I take it the noise peaks are broadband, right? Do they depend on the transmit frequency in any way? It sounds very much like there is a defect in a specific radio near you. Is that the case or are hams measuring this in general? If this affects all the 7300s then the FPGA code will probably have to be reworked to fix the bug. I kinda wish I had one and a nice lab with lots of pertinent test equipment. I doubt Keysight and ICOM would set me up to do it. (It'd be better for them to set up a tiger team of their engineers with the equipment needed to suppress this possible bug.)

{^_^}


On 20220225 01:55:45, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

By clean I mean - can I hear anything of sufficient magnitude to disturb the noise floor anywhere in band, and hence inhibit my ability to receive signals close to the noise floor. The noise floor in a semi-rural location on 28, 50 and 70MHz is not particularly low so I do not feel that this is unreasonable. The biggest problem with the IC7300 is the AM noise bump at 20kHz and 130kHz which is only 60dB down on the carrier when running at 30W on 28MHz. This power level is typical when driving an amplifier.  When modulated with an SSB signal this occupies a considerable amount of bandwidth.  The close in PN -s only -120dBc/Hz at 1kHz and  -130dBc/Hz at 10kHz. The composite noise is -115kHz at 10kHz, this is not what I would consider clean, even close in. The K3S( and a few others) is far better in this respect although the PA has quite poor linearity, especially on 6m.

 

The Hermes will do a much better job with any decent PA, even without pure signal. There are some spurs @ -65dBc which improve with a higher sample rate.  I have not checked these with the V2 firmware but I will do immediately I receive my Hermes from Apache.

 

I do not think that a transceiver at the IC-7300 price point has fixed pre-distortion. As you quite correctly say keeping it under control over temperature and voltage variation would be difficult. Also Icom would almost certainly have mentioned it in their advertising. What the IC7300 does well is manage audio overshoots by using a ‘look ahead’ algorithm. This is maybe where the impression of it having a clean TX comes from.

 

I think that the problem here is that so many transceivers are quite bad, so I can just about accept that the IC-7300 is less bad.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of jdow via groups.io
Sent: 25 February 2022 10:27
To:
main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

OK, please refresh my mind what you mean by "clean". It certainly appears to be sending something much closer to pure signal concentrated within its intended bandwidth than most other transmitters. I also understand that it is not as good as it can be with full active predistortion. Both might generate increased noise at some significant separation from the intended signal frequency. I am not sure of the mechanism by which this would take place.

As an ornery critter there is nothing I would sit down and declare "clean" without a definition of "clean". I guess I am asking for your definition of the term or even of the term "clean enough".

{O.O}



On 20220225 01:13:11, Conrad, PA5Y wrote:

I KNOW for a fact that the IC7300 is not clean. Please provide me some evidence to the contrary. I have measurements with a R&S FSWP Signal analyser out to a 1MHz BW. You guys are looking in an SSB BW which is fine unless you happen to be 130kHz away, then you will hear plenty of splatter from the IC7300. I tested the IC-7300 as a result of hearing this on 50MHz. In other words the lab tests were driven by on air experience.

 

You are spreading misleading and incorrect information.

 

73

 

Conrad PA5Y

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of oldjackbob via groups.io
Sent: 24 February 2022 23:12
To:
main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] Open HPSDR Hermes (14 bit ADC, EP3C25) Transceiver Card

 

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 12:24 PM, Max wrote:

I just think if we follow good design and signal chain management that superb, clean signals can also be generated without the need for PS, that's all.

Max,

I disagree. My signal is my signature. Audio clarity is admittedly important but what matters most to me is a splatter-free signal, and in that regard nothing comes close to what PS can produce. As I stated earlier, even the best Class A amplifiers only have -40dB splatter. PS starts at -60db and often pushes -70dB. That means that PS reduces splatter to less than 1% (and at times only 1/10 of 1%) of what even the best traditional equipment can produce.

I also agree with Simon that the 7300 (and also the 7610 for that matter) produces an extremely sharp-edged signal with unarguably less splatter than is achievable with any other non-ANAN radio. It was explained to me by Ray N5LAX that the reason those radios are so clean splatter-wise is because ICOM embedded an algorithm into the firmware that functions very similarly to PS in the sense that it corrects for non-linearity in the PA, but it is a fixed-value (i.e., static) correction only, not a real-time self-adjusting correction value such as is employed by PS. NOTE: I have not been able to verify that info, but that is what was told to me over-the-air by Ray when I commented that I had no idea how the 7300 could produce such a clean, sharp-edged signal. So I'm repeating it here.

IMO it's unwise and short-sighted to summarily dismiss the game-changing value that PS brings to the hobby. Its benefits are so unarguable that I (and Rob Sherwood) often wonder why the big-name radios don't offer it as a standard feature. It's free, so utilize it for goodness sake!

73,

Mark




 

 

 





Re: RSPdx and SDR Console

Dale Elshoff WB8CJW <dale.elshoff@...>
 

You have the frequency set too high.  I believe (2,000 MHz. or 2GHz.) 2 ,000, 000, 000 is the top end for the receiver.  You have 5 ,999, 991, 000 (5, 999 MHz. or nearly 6GHz.) set.  Set it to a frequency you know is active, on-air.


On 3/11/2022 8:13 PM, ffiorin via groups.io wrote:


I  hope  this  is fine


Il 12/03/2022 02:03 Max <radiomax@...> ha scritto:


Fabio

Actually, just realised you are not even displaying the ribbon bar. See picture to get dropdown from little arrow at top of screen and uncheck "Minimize Ribbon Bar". Things will then become a lot more manageable!



Re: Audio level issue with SDR-Console and Fldigi #sdr-consolev3

bwschober@...
 

Problem seems to have resolved itself.  Probably user error.  Thanks for all of the replies and suggestions.  Next time I will send screen shots :)


For Simon: Log file & screenshot for previous Post. RE: [SDR-Radio] For Simon, Max & Calder & et al: Re Using Icom 8600 and Console

rmrrgs <rgsrose@...>
 

Hi Simon,

 

Really nice of you to take the time to help me out.

As you’ve probably discerned, not too sharp with this “stuff”. Am in my mid 80’s now, but still enjoy the sw monitoring hobby a lot.

But old age I guess does creep in.  A great excuse for most anything.

 

Love your Console program.

Use it extensively with RSPlay and Airspy units.

 

Would be great if I can use with my new Icom R8600.

Sure is complicated (for me).

 

Here’s the log file, hopefully.

And the screen shot too, if I can figure a way of attaching, below.

 

See my original Post for the problems I’ve run into.

Probably something very simple which I’ve missed, as usual.

 

Again, thanks and best regards,

Bob

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Simon Brown
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2022 8:09 AM
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SDR-Radio] For Simon, Max & Calder & et al: Re Using Icom 8600 and Console

 

Bob,

 

If you do not add screenshots and a logfile as attachments then how on earth can we help you? Both contain important diagnostics.

 

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of rmrrgs
Sent: 12 March 2022 11:27
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] For Simon, Max & Calder & et al: Re Using Icom 8600 and Console

 

Hi All,

Boy, would I be lost without all of you folks.
What a really nice group. Thanks so much.

I got the Icom driver installed (per Max), and it seems I can tune the 8600.
Great.

**I installed the x64 version:  Correct ?  There was also a 32 version

The "Local" light on the radio is lit.
I can change the frequency, but I cannot seem to change the mode
on the radio which is illuminated on the radio panel as USB

Clicking the AM button in Console seems to do nothing
USB remains illuminated on the radio panel.

Brand new user with the 8600, so don't have a firm understanding, yet, of all the menus.
Might there be, perhaps, some setting in the radio that locks and prohibits Console
from changing items like the mode ?

And,

I put in in Console 1.628.300  e.g.
the 1.6 or the highest order digits are always shown on the radio panel.
The 2 place in the example above usually also.

Any lower order digits, never.  Putting in in Console 1.628.300 is
reflected in the radio display as:  1.620.00o

Also, very, very slow to update.

Thoughts ?

Best regards,
Bob


--

- + - + -

Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.

 


Re: For Simon, Max & Calder & et al: Re Using Icom 8600 and Console

Simon Brown
 

Bob,

 

If you do not add screenshots and a logfile as attachments then how on earth can we help you? Both contain important diagnostics.

 

 

Simon Brown, G4ELI

https://www.sdr-radio.com

 

From: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io <main@SDR-Radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of rmrrgs
Sent: 12 March 2022 11:27
To: main@SDR-Radio.groups.io
Subject: [SDR-Radio] For Simon, Max & Calder & et al: Re Using Icom 8600 and Console

 

Hi All,

Boy, would I be lost without all of you folks.
What a really nice group. Thanks so much.

I got the Icom driver installed (per Max), and it seems I can tune the 8600.
Great.

**I installed the x64 version:  Correct ?  There was also a 32 version

The "Local" light on the radio is lit.
I can change the frequency, but I cannot seem to change the mode
on the radio which is illuminated on the radio panel as USB

Clicking the AM button in Console seems to do nothing
USB remains illuminated on the radio panel.

Brand new user with the 8600, so don't have a firm understanding, yet, of all the menus.
Might there be, perhaps, some setting in the radio that locks and prohibits Console
from changing items like the mode ?

And,

I put in in Console 1.628.300  e.g.
the 1.6 or the highest order digits are always shown on the radio panel.
The 2 place in the example above usually also.

Any lower order digits, never.  Putting in in Console 1.628.300 is
reflected in the radio display as:  1.620.00o

Also, very, very slow to update.

Thoughts ?

Best regards,
Bob

Regards,
Bob.

Thoughts ?

Best regards,
Bob


--
- + - + -
Please use https://forum.sdr-radio.com:4499/ when posting questions or problems.


Re: Icom R8600 And Driver For ?

rmrrgs <rgsrose@...>
 

Hi,

Nice to hear from you.
Hope to visit the Allagash, again, this summer.

Have Console working with the 8600 now.
Sorta.

See my Post on the Console Group for
some glitches.

e.g., doesn't transmit all the lower orders digits.
Very, very slow.
Can't change the Mode from Console with the pushbutton on Console.

Regards,
Bob
-------

On Mar 11, 2022, at 7:13 PM, Calder Latham <calder_b@...> wrote:

Hi Bob. I don't own one but have you tried the connection provided by Simon. Stop SDR Console in the upper left corner. Click on 'Select Radio' in same corner. Click on 'Definitions', click on 'Search' on the next screen, and then you will see 'Icom IC-8600.' Does that get things going for you?

Hope this helps.

Cal...W1HHO

On 3/11/2022 17:17, rmrrgs wrote:
Hello,

Want to use Console with new Icom R8600.
Apparently I do not have the required Driver.

There are two options:  the Driver USB I/Q Package for HDSDR from Icom, and
a Driver from SDRConsole as Simon mentioned.

Have given up trying to download the Icom one.
And, having problems finding just the Driver from Simon's items.
That old age problem again.

I really don't want to download and install a complete SDRConsole, as I have
mine working just fine now, and don't want to mess it up (as I usually manage to do)
And, I guess the Driver has to be loaded separately, anyway.  (true ?)

So,
Might some, please, just send me the link to download (just) the appropriate Driver.

And, where to put it and install it.

Much thanks, most appreciated,
Bob
-- 
All the Best from
the woods of Maine.


For Simon, Max & Calder & et al: Re Using Icom 8600 and Console

rmrrgs <rgsrose@...>
 

Hi All,

Boy, would I be lost without all of you folks.
What a really nice group. Thanks so much.

I got the Icom driver installed (per Max), and it seems I can tune the 8600.
Great.

**I installed the x64 version:  Correct ?  There was also a 32 version

The "Local" light on the radio is lit.
I can change the frequency, but I cannot seem to change the mode
on the radio which is illuminated on the radio panel as USB

Clicking the AM button in Console seems to do nothing
USB remains illuminated on the radio panel.

Brand new user with the 8600, so don't have a firm understanding, yet, of all the menus.
Might there be, perhaps, some setting in the radio that locks and prohibits Console
from changing items like the mode ?

And,

I put in in Console 1.628.300  e.g.
the 1.6 or the highest order digits are always shown on the radio panel.
The 2 place in the example above usually also.

Any lower order digits, never.  Putting in in Console 1.628.300 is
reflected in the radio display as:  1.620.00o

Also, very, very slow to update.

Thoughts ?

Best regards,
Bob

Regards,
Bob.

Thoughts ?

Best regards,
Bob

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